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Message: <blockquote data-quote="NewJeffCT" data-source="post: 5605779" data-attributes="member: 10784">ok, my original point was that in 3.5E there was no "save" or defense against being manipulated via Bluff, Intimidate or Diplomacy.  And, the roll vs. will defense or whatever in 4E seems very low as well.  Using a social skill to accomplish that task is an easier hill to climb than Charming or Dominating them, or attacking and killing them.  I thought the bar should be set higher when trying to Bluff/Intimidate/Diplomacize somebody to get information or have them do something for you when something bad could happen to them otherwise.The problem after that is do you penalize a player who is playing a PC whose class depends on Charisma & social skills, but is not the most sociable of persons?  Do you tell them "no" you can't play that sort of class?  Do you penalize them for not coming up with a creative way to role-play their bluff or intimidate somebody?   My answer to both questions is "no", but others seem to strongly disagree.  My games tend to rely a pretty good amount on role-playing, and I would hate for somebody to feel handicapped because they're not as verbally creative as others.</blockquote>