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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5611117" data-attributes="member: 22779">Well, just because they have the right course of action doesn't mean that they automatically succeed.  They could still fail the check of course.  So, the game's challenge is a combination of coming up with a plan that is believable to the people at the table (or at least reasonably plausible - none of us are professional con artists I think, so, let's not set the bar too high) and then playing through that plan.If the rolls fail (and the rolls and DC's most certainly can and should be modified by the context of the situation) then the plan fails.  They don't get in the door.If the rolls succeed, then, I believe, that they should be given the success they were expecting.  Maybe not exactly the way they were expecting it, but, something that's actually a success.OTOH, "Sorry, yes I believe you are a member of the diplomatic group, but, you still may not enter" is just the DM taking a success and spinning it into a failure.  Where's the challenge in that?Actually, let me turn the question around.  Where is the challenge in a situation where you can never succeed?  In JamesonCourage's example, he flat out states that the rolls won't let them succeed.  At best, they only fail a little bit or a lot.  Under no circumstance will they actually be allowed to succeed.Apparently because there is no "Open the Gate" skill.  <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/worried.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":-S" title="Uhm    :-S" data-shortname=":-S" />And DM's wonder why players slowly stop attempting anything other than killing everything they meet.  Why players stop trying new things after playing for a while.  Why would players keep trying new things when new things cannot succeed?  Kill everything works.  It works almost all the time.  Spinning success into failure just leads to players stopping trying.Let me ask this then.  Why is the supposedly "neutral arbiter" DM choosing the results that most disadvantage the PC's?  How is the decision arrived at that despite the PC's not actually failing in anything they've done, they still fail being a neutral arbiter?You guys are absolutely right.  D&D does entitle the DM to do what you are saying.  You certainly could choose the most disadvantageous result every time.  Personally, I don't play that way anymore.  It's too antagonistic for one.  For another it's needlessly frustrating to the players and discourages any creativity in the future.First off, this would be funny.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />  But, allowing their success to actually count as a success isn't all that difficult.PC:  HI, I'm the Merry Prankster.Guard:  ((After a successful bluff)) Oh, please don't kill me sir!  I'm just a poor guard.  PC:  What?  Huh?  No... wait.Guard:  I'll do anything you want, just don't kill me sir!PC:  Yes!  Yes!  I'll carve you up if you don't open the gate!Guard:  Right away sir.  Anything you say sir.There, now the bluff succeeded, they got into the gate and they know that their disguise is a really, really bad idea.  And, you have the added bonus of just what are they going to do with Mr. Guard now, particularly if your group is a good aligned one.Isn't that a heck of a lot more fun than:PC:  I'm the Merry Prankster.DM:  Don't even bother rolling.  He starts screaming his head off for the guards.  They start shooting at you from the walls.  PC:  Uh, what?  What just happened?DM:  You don't know, they're just shooting at you.  Roll for initiative.Although, to be fair, that second one might be fun.  I think the first one would be better, but the second one isn't bad.But, typically, the next time something like this comes around, you can bet dollars to donuts, they scale the wall and don't bother talking to anyone.  One Mass Invisibility and Levitate spell later and they enter the castle without any role play at all.</blockquote>

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