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<blockquote data-quote="Majere" data-source="post: 1094067" data-attributes="member: 13916">&quot;I notice just about everyone arguing FOR tumble the way it is, has characters that use it, or could use it. Has it crossed any of your minds you might be biased ... ? That you like the current &quot;feh, no AoO for you&quot; setup because it directly benefits you ... ?&quot;In the whole of 3E Ive playeed 1 rogue. shadows dancer rogue sorcerer etcetcetc, he has shield, mage armor, dex, lots of nice tricks and ok hp. I would NEVER have throw him forward unless it was do or die time, ranged sneak attack is far superior, and far more deadly used right.I have seen manymany tumbling rogues, we have one in our party who has work all the way to huge tumble and spring attack. And do you know what, every time he tumbles past he utters a phrase along the lines: &quot;I know its a risk but if I can land the big one&quot; or&quot;I know Ill get thrashed but I need to do something&quot;And amazingly enough, every time he goes forward he gets pummeled, because we are 8th level and fighting mobs doing 50+ damage per round to the party fighters with acs in the mid 30's (Expertise haste magical armor etc). And if at 8th/9th level you 5d6+nothing is killing a mob in one hit, you are fighting what we term &quot;crud&quot;. And if the dont turn round and floor you with their +14/+9 attack doing d8+7 damage from all 3 of them, they are what we term &quot;crud&quot;As it happends I dont stand to gain anything from tumble, after my outing to level 12 rogue I never ever intend to play a rogue again unless noone else is playing one and we need one for balance.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Majere, post: 1094067, member: 13916"] "I notice just about everyone arguing FOR tumble the way it is, has characters that use it, or could use it. Has it crossed any of your minds you might be biased ... ? That you like the current "feh, no AoO for you" setup because it directly benefits you ... ?" In the whole of 3E Ive playeed 1 rogue. shadows dancer rogue sorcerer etcetcetc, he has shield, mage armor, dex, lots of nice tricks and ok hp. I would NEVER have throw him forward unless it was do or die time, ranged sneak attack is far superior, and far more deadly used right. I have seen manymany tumbling rogues, we have one in our party who has work all the way to huge tumble and spring attack. And do you know what, every time he tumbles past he utters a phrase along the lines: "I know its a risk but if I can land the big one" or "I know Ill get thrashed but I need to do something" And amazingly enough, every time he goes forward he gets pummeled, because we are 8th level and fighting mobs doing 50+ damage per round to the party fighters with acs in the mid 30's (Expertise haste magical armor etc). And if at 8th/9th level you 5d6+nothing is killing a mob in one hit, you are fighting what we term "crud". And if the dont turn round and floor you with their +14/+9 attack doing d8+7 damage from all 3 of them, they are what we term "crud" As it happends I dont stand to gain anything from tumble, after my outing to level 12 rogue I never ever intend to play a rogue again unless noone else is playing one and we need one for balance. [/QUOTE]

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