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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Pax" data-source="post: 1106490" data-attributes="member: 6875">Funny, I guess that depends on your definition of "Valid".  As for Rogues winning initiative versus fighter types: who values initiative more, archetypal Rogues or archetypal Fighters?  Answer: the Rogues.  Who is, therefor, more likely to take Improved Initiative at some point or other?  The Rogues.  Combine that with who is likely to have the higher Dexterity (the Rogues, again) ... and we see that the Rogues are likely to have a +7 to +10 initiative modifier, compared to (likely) the Fighters' +1 to +3.  A 6 or 7 point edge means, while the Rogue own't ALWAYS win initiative ... he will often (even usually) do so.Actually, it was "your" side that brought up the "it would never be an issue in a real game" aspect; James' scenario (and mine) simply points to two easy-to-envision, off-the-top-of-our-heads situations in which Tumble gives too much advantage for a mere SKILL.Actually, I first came to the decision that Tumble is broken at FIFTEENTH level, when my reach-weapon-wielding, size-large warrior -- built to use AoOs -- was rendered completely useless by the PLETHORA of people (including those for whom Tumble is CROSS-class) with Tumble skill modifiers of +14 or better ... who, under the [3.0] rules in use at that time, were NEVER going to generate an AoO from movement.  Ever.  Period.It only gets worse as levels rise.  Concentration to avoid spellcasting AoOs at least gets harder as spell level rises (and at Epic levels, you might be chucking, say, 18th level spells ... after all the metamagics are piled on), and at least can be hit with an Epic feat on TOP of it all, to make it harder (and harder and harder, as the Spellcasting Harrier gains levels).</blockquote>

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