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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 1107211" data-attributes="member: 5834">reMechanics are balanced a variety of ways. One way is to inventory all uses of a skill or ability in the scheme of standard combat, and compare it to the skills or abilities of other classes.My main point was that given the core classes with access to Tumble (remember, game mechanics are generally balance using core classes), it does not imbalance the game nor hurt gameplay.Why? Once again I state that classes who possess this skill and are most able to take advantage of it are weak combatants with many weaknesses. What I mean by this is that if they fail to make a Tumble check, even one AOO will seriously injure them. Multiple AOO's will destroy them. In terms of party dynamics, for the rogue, monk or bard to be effective, they must be able to move in and out of combat without provoking AOO's. Otherwise, the rogue, monk or bard will have a terrible time entering combat the higher level they get mostly having to seek healing after suffering a few AOO's. Heck, I have had to retreat from combat many times even when in ideal position because a creature attacked me a few times. The cleric can't be everywhere at once.Given that the game is balanced according to a standard four person party, Tumble is as easy as it is because it increases the rogues survivability and ability to move effectively in combat. Otherwise, they would have to spend feats they probably don't have to effectively do the same thing.This is true. D&D is balanced according to the core rules though, so taking into account optimal prestige class builds can skew alot of abilities as we have too often seen.The point was that there are ways to counter a tumbler, such as taking a ready action to trip or grapple them. Tumblers can't always screw up the scenarios of a prepared DM. You asked for reasons why an opposed Tumble roll wasn't necessary, so I gave them to you.Notice how they have greatly reduced the movement increasing capabilities of rogues. Once again, I state tumbling is a good way to isolate yourself for death. Interpretation actually. Is an area filled with a creature not considered obstructed? Since there is to my knowledge no clarification, I can only assume that a creature is considered an obstruction. I use size to determine how much of an obstruction.I understand why you would choose to interpret the rule a different way. No need to discuss it.Once again, you said reasons why a Tumble skill check is not necessary. One of them being the skill is limited to use by people wearing a certain type of armor and unencumbered. Are we not supposed to considering balancing creatures for a skill.Look, good play is a relative term. Good as in challenging. Good as in fun. Good as in balanced. Good meaning what? Explain.I fail to see the analogy with the failed Reflex save. If a tumble check is failed, the tumble is ineffective in preventing AOO's. Your point?Given that tumble is a skill commonly used by light fighters, I think it is perfectly reasonable to take it into account when balancing the overall abilities of a class.Should it be the sole reason? no. Should it be considered, yes. Should you consider the difficult of a skill in terms of what it provides to certain classes who have it as a class skill? Yes.AOO's very badly affect rogues, monks and bards. I know this for a fact. A single AOO at high level can be absolutely devastating to those three classes for a variety of reasons which I cannot begin to fully analyze by saying anything more than they are weaker combatants.Fun is a relative term as well. In my campaigns, an opposed Tumble roll would probably be very undesirable. I'm not kidding. I don't know how other folks play, but the ruthless level of tactical acumen in our campaigns makes life difficult. Many times our characters feel helpless, especially our light fighters, increasing the difficulty of tumble would just further dampen their enjoyment of the game.Has the argument for an opposed tumble roll changed? I feel being redundant will possibly make clear my main point, thus allowing us to part company agreeing to disagree.My main point has been made multiple times. It has not been refuted unless you consider saying basing class balance on an important skill should not be considered. I disagree. I think they chose very carefully what core classes would receive tumble and how that skill would affect gameplay. They did not balance Tumble according to every possible prestige class or multi-class combination available.(In the campaigns I play in, tumbling up to the casters is usually not an option. They certainly don't place themselves in harm's way. No monk in our campaign has done this all too often. In fact, it is a wonder if a monk survives to very high level in our campaigns.)Once again I counter with monks and rogues die very easily and can't take the AOO's a fighter can. The cleric usually only has enough spell power to focus healing on one player. Also, there are no 3 feats that can prevent AOO's in the core rules that I know of, make AOO's harder yes, but not prevent them save for from single creature. Only the tumble skill can prevent AOO's, that makes me believe given the only core classes that possess the skill that it was indeed meant for rogues and monks to be able to easily avoid AOO's. I know given my game experience, I would give rogues and monks a means to avoid AOO's.We play ruthlessly. If you cannot say that Tumble is a good way to get  killed by isolating yourself, we play very different campaigns.The word "good" is relative. He must continually raise several skills: Disable Device, Search, Escape Artist (very important given the power of grappling), Open Lock, Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen to do a rogue's core job. These skills are more important than tumble which is more of a fun skill. Not everything needs to be level-relevant to be balanced. Its not whether they work well or not. As I said, I am neither vehemently for or against an opposed tumble roll. It is a non-factor in our game.Tumble does not create an unfair advantage save in  a few situations where we fight relatively weak creatures. I say let the tumblers have fun in combats with the cannon fodder. It isn't as if tumble is going to help them kill the BBEG when we face him.</blockquote>

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