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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 1108270" data-attributes="member: 5834">reWhat point was I trying to make? That rogue's would be overextended skill point wise if they had another skill they needed to constantly raise because it was opposed. I listed 8 skills that should be consistently raised for the rogue to be effective. It is not as though the rogue can spend no points on tumble to be effective, he just doesn't need to spend 1 point every level. Tumble as I stated is a fun skill that greatly enhances combat effectiveness. It is not a must have for a rogue to do their job, which is not combat.That skill list does not include Bluff, Use Magic Device, Balance, Climb and a variety of other skills that a rogue might want to have at least a few ranks in. Even a rogue has only so many skills points. I feel the game designers took this into account when designing tumble DC's. It wasn't so much that it shouldn't be an opposed roll, but this is a fun skill for a rogue so it doesn't need to be an opposed roll.Our experiences differ with casters. Maybe low level casters have trouble with tumbling monks, but mid to high level casters don't in our campaigns.Yes, the monk being able to tumble is helpful for gaining a flank bonus, overall the rogue benefits the most from the skill for being able to move into sneak attack position.I'm sorry, basing skill balance on the monk is impossible. If you analyze the monk's special abilities. at high level they vastly exceed what any other class can do save for the cleric or wizard. I would never balance an ability based on the monk class. The monk class is like the wizard, it starts off slow (reason why not many have survived to high level in our game), then become hell to deal with for just about any class including fighters. I agree. they are options for dealing with a variety of situations including tumbling. Same as a ready action can stop even a defensive casting caster using the concentration skill. See the similarity? Or do you also use an opposed roll for conentration? It becomes very easy as you rise in level as well and is based on the spell level with nothing to do with the skill of the person they defensive casting against. In fact, defensive casting is even easier than tumbling through a person, and will always be easier.Purely a matter of personal preference.The rogue still has a very optimal save versus reflex attacks. You certainly can't balance saving throws like skills without uttering ruining a major aspect of certain classes, spell casting.AOO's are an extra, not a class ability. Please don't argue about combat reflexes, there are plenty of people that would still be subject to combat reflexes. If a few tumblers aren't, then big deal. There are plenty of people immune to mind-affecting spells, sneak attack and all other variety of spells and class abilities, it doesn't hurt balance that a few tumblers can pretty much be immune to AOO's. They are no more guaranteed than many other abilities possessed by monsters and characters. Please don't bring the wizard and cleric into this. I can cite a variety of ways for each to effectively deal with AOO's. A rogue has one way to counteract an AOO, tumbling. that's it. He could choose feats to make them more difficult, but only one means to actually counteract them.At high levels, AOO's impact the monk because of party dynamics. A cleric has to focus their healing on one target, which means a monk must keep himself as undamaged as possible or be driven from the combat. Even given their high AC, at higher levels certain creatures and spells can strike them easily enough causing substantial damage. They are also more likely to have fewer hit points because they must spend optimal stats on abilities other than Constitution.There are many factors that must be considered when designing class capabilities and party dynamics must be taken into account as well. How much can the cleric heal? If the monk or rogue is severely damaged, will they be able to get out of combat so the cleric can heal them? So many factors to think about.This works at times with cannon fodder. Somtimes we are just as likely to be ambushed after a few foray's into a fortified area.For example, we re-entered an area we thought we had cleared out. Therein were a bunch of giant guards and two sorcerers with Slippers of Spider Climbing running on the roof. No melees were going to get to them. I have multiple scenarios like this. You fight a lich or vampire and stunning and sneak attack doesn't work. Bad guys with Fortification armor. Flying and Invisible magi who wait to cast magic after they see what the party is giong to do or use conjuration spells from a distance. How often do you have the bad guy mage wait 3 to 5 rounds watching the combat continuing to throw bad guys at you until the party looks worn down enough to start dropping evocation spells on? How often does the DM make 1 or 2 enemies rush out of the room on the first round to alert the big bad? How often do you as a DM double up an Alarm spell in a regular guard room so that all a guard has to do is breach the alarm to alert the BBEG to your presence?We play a ruthless game. These are common tactics. Probably why things that seem troublesome in other peoples games just get an "big deal" in ours. Absolutely ruthless games. I still cringe at the half-fiend fighter/rogue/duellist with the wounding rapier we had to fight while taking on a variety of other enemies. She danced around the field flanking and sneak attacking us while we fought her comrades. It wasn't pretty.Its more we have issues with our monsters and enemies. They often prepare for us. It isn't fun. It is boring to you. As I said, tumble has proven to be a skill that increases survivability in our campaigns. That is something I am very much for considering the deadly nature of D&D. I don't know how many times a rogue, monk or prestige class has used tumble to limit a monster to one attack per round while they dodged to give the fighter-type time to eliminate the first enemy and engage the second. It is a life saver in our campaign. That is why it is so hard for me to see the other perpsective. We must play a more ruthless game than others that skews my opinion. I can see this concern, save that a tumbler can only move once then attack. Spring Attack is much more effective in that you can move, attack, then move. A much more powerful ability than a half-move and atack.A rogue still has to spend a reasonable number of skill points on the skill. It just doesn't need to be kept up like several other skills.I thought that was the point of hammering them. Sure, you can tumble easy, but if you do, you're going to suffer.Why should I make the skill be hard so they have to spend skill points on it and have it be relatively useless because they will tumble into bad situations? I'm not changing the monsters tactics, and I'm not going to force them to increase a skill that is only marginally useful at higher levels.Yes. I say again, there can only be so many opposed rolls or skills requiring high DC's. The rogue already has to many. I'm not going to lie, I feel tumble is a gimme skill for rogues. It makes them more fun to play at the sacrifice of a little more challenging mechanic. The fun of playing a rogue combat-wise is being able to get into position for a sneak attack and their skills. The monk is not a balanced class IMO. They are slow-build into a nightmare for a DM. Tumble is the least of your worries for a high level monk. They tear up any NPC's with class levels because of the superiority of the monk class, but can be easily defeated by a powerful monster. Monk is not balanced versus other core-classes.An opposed tumble roll would overextend a rogue's skill points IMO. The monk can continue to build up his tumble to take advantage of the advanced tumbling options in OA. The rogue can have a decent tumble skill that still allows them to position for the sneak attack while not costing them too many skill points.Rogue's have to be prepared. An average rogue in our campaign receives about 10 or 11 skill points a level. They must have a variety of skills at a decent level including the core 8 I mentioned to be effective. They usually need Bluff, Balance, Gather Information, Climb, and Swim as well at a some point in time. It is also desirable that they pick up more than a few languages to be a better scout. I just don't mind the tumble skill. When it becomes a problem, I will adjust it.</blockquote>

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