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Message: <blockquote data-quote="HammerMan" data-source="post: 8561243" data-attributes="member: 84112">my way is just declair something doesn't work...I have to jump into my WAY back old man machine...in 3e when I started to use the social and mental skill more (cause 2e didn't really have many) I had a player that was a cha 7 half orc and no social skills. I also had a player that was human but with dragon blood as a sorcerer with a 20+ cha, and lots of skills in social things (cross class back then).  the half orc was used to just 'rping thought' dump stats... and what I started doing was no matter what he said, no matter how perfect no matter how smart is act with discust as the NPC and ignore him.Over the years I have done it with Int too... "Oh, you want to ask if you can lower your 8 int to a 6 to get another +1 to con? okay" then every idea he states just meta game is wrong... or ignored by npcs... no matter HOW good an idea it was it would just fail.in both cases if they complained something should work I would call for a skill check... after a bit they realized they had to have character skill or it wasn't going to workedit: I did this for years but 4e had a side bar called 'bag of rats fighter' and I could not agree with it more... if someone wantss to use the letter of the rules to circumvent the spirit the answer is NO</blockquote>