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<blockquote data-quote="Giant Octopodes" data-source="post: 8746504" data-attributes="member: 7037488"><p>Just want to point out a few things:</p><p></p><p>Focusing on damage dealt ignores that most spells are "Save or Suck" in nature, and that successfully landing a Polymorph on the Big Bad is fundamentally transformative to the combat in a way which is not replicable otherwise. Regardless of relative success rate, going from BBEG and his 3 minions to <em>just</em> his 3 minions, then once they're dealt with, <em>just</em> the BBEG, sways the nature and difficulty of the combat in a way not easily represented with just damage figures.</p><p></p><p>Second, comparing combat performance is like comparing the rate of speeding tickets for cars vs motorcycles. The motorcycles may well generate more, but they only get tickets if they Allow themselves to. They can get to 150 and be gone and there's nothing the cops can do about it, and everyone involved in the interaction recognizes that to be true. If a combat is going poorly, the full caster can get the whole party out of there. If they're creative and have the time, they can likely bypass the combat entirely. Oh I need this artifact from within this tomb? Well the Fighter may be better at slaughtering everything within to get to it, a caster can potentially remotely scout it, teleport right to the end, and get back out without fighting a single creature. In many cases, the only reason they wouldn't is because they don't want to - it's more fun to slaughter your way through the tomb, after all.</p><p></p><p>Finally, combat is not only one pillar, it's the one at which non-casters have the best chance at (relatively speaking) shining. Sure a Fighter or Ranger with great survival skills could lead them through this treacherous swamp, across the mountains, and over to this city on the other side. Or, you could just teleport there (or at least 90%+ of the way there). You can travel at a day's notice to other planes of existence, and easily bypass what otherwise would be entire adventure arcs. Socialization, you can carefully craft a speech and make alliances which will allow you to persuade someone to do something. Or, you could just dominate them and compel them to do what you say.</p><p></p><p>Now, certainly there can and will be times where the spellcasting solutions are not appropriate or applicable, or carry enough downside to not be worth consideration. The point is simply that they're There, In Addition To the same options present for non-casting characters. And, given the choice, having more options (especially ones which can bypass difficult situations entirely) tends to be viewed as superior to not having those options.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Giant Octopodes, post: 8746504, member: 7037488"] Just want to point out a few things: Focusing on damage dealt ignores that most spells are "Save or Suck" in nature, and that successfully landing a Polymorph on the Big Bad is fundamentally transformative to the combat in a way which is not replicable otherwise. Regardless of relative success rate, going from BBEG and his 3 minions to [I]just[/I] his 3 minions, then once they're dealt with, [I]just[/I] the BBEG, sways the nature and difficulty of the combat in a way not easily represented with just damage figures. Second, comparing combat performance is like comparing the rate of speeding tickets for cars vs motorcycles. The motorcycles may well generate more, but they only get tickets if they Allow themselves to. They can get to 150 and be gone and there's nothing the cops can do about it, and everyone involved in the interaction recognizes that to be true. If a combat is going poorly, the full caster can get the whole party out of there. If they're creative and have the time, they can likely bypass the combat entirely. Oh I need this artifact from within this tomb? Well the Fighter may be better at slaughtering everything within to get to it, a caster can potentially remotely scout it, teleport right to the end, and get back out without fighting a single creature. In many cases, the only reason they wouldn't is because they don't want to - it's more fun to slaughter your way through the tomb, after all. Finally, combat is not only one pillar, it's the one at which non-casters have the best chance at (relatively speaking) shining. Sure a Fighter or Ranger with great survival skills could lead them through this treacherous swamp, across the mountains, and over to this city on the other side. Or, you could just teleport there (or at least 90%+ of the way there). You can travel at a day's notice to other planes of existence, and easily bypass what otherwise would be entire adventure arcs. Socialization, you can carefully craft a speech and make alliances which will allow you to persuade someone to do something. Or, you could just dominate them and compel them to do what you say. Now, certainly there can and will be times where the spellcasting solutions are not appropriate or applicable, or carry enough downside to not be worth consideration. The point is simply that they're There, In Addition To the same options present for non-casting characters. And, given the choice, having more options (especially ones which can bypass difficult situations entirely) tends to be viewed as superior to not having those options. [/QUOTE]
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