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<blockquote data-quote="Undrave" data-source="post: 8749366" data-attributes="member: 7015698"><p>It's a bad niche is what it is. </p><p></p><p>It's fine if their versatility was in their build, but it is also in their day to day load out. You can pick the Diviner for the cool ability and then not pick a single Divination spell and never prepare one if you so choose. What do you loose from that? Maybe it costs more to copy your spells? Big whoop. A Fighter can be built in a myriads of ways, even just out of the PHB, but they can't just switch build mid adventure as if it was like changing a shirt. </p><p></p><p>It also results in a bland class who's apparently so defined by being 'The Bestest at Magic' that any nerfs is seen as making the class not Wizardly enough. Wizard fans probably won't admit it, but they LIKE to be OP, they THRIVE on being able to destroy a DM's plans entirely with 1 spell they were 'good enough' to prepare for that day. If they can't be OP they whine. </p><p></p><p>Agreed, 5e is terrible at making retreat a reasonable action. Plus, how many video games can you just retreat when facing a boss or a story encounter? Not that many... </p><p></p><p>Wizard fans will find a way to whine either way... </p><p></p><p>I think this shows that Magic School (which, BTW, are pretty badly designed anyway) is an AWFUL concept to base a subclass on. Especially if you're not gonna enforce the theme and force the Wizard to actually have spells of that school. </p><p></p><p>How about a class that is granted a bonded item that grows in power with them? A magic sword that recognizes you as a strong warrior and slowly grants you more of its abilities? Or a symbiotic armor that evolves in response to your hardships? A cursed gauntlets that is satisfied when you feed it amulets and other magical trinket, and grants you extra powers to keep hunting for more? Could be a bit of a mix-n-match Warlock style class where you pick what your generic adventurer type is like (Warrior or Expert) and then the meat of your subclass is the Item you start with?</p><p></p><p>Would that be an interesting class? </p><p></p><p>If the DM has to do extra work so that one class doesn't overshadow others, then it's a problem. Just because the DM can enforce components and rest schedule, doesn't mean the versatility isn't a problem. The people I play with rarely play Wizard unless it's like... a necromancer. I've seen the Diviner once, played as a proper support character so that was nice, but in general my friends avoid Wizard. They know it's powerful and they also know it's got nothing going on in term of story or fluff.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Undrave, post: 8749366, member: 7015698"] It's a bad niche is what it is. It's fine if their versatility was in their build, but it is also in their day to day load out. You can pick the Diviner for the cool ability and then not pick a single Divination spell and never prepare one if you so choose. What do you loose from that? Maybe it costs more to copy your spells? Big whoop. A Fighter can be built in a myriads of ways, even just out of the PHB, but they can't just switch build mid adventure as if it was like changing a shirt. It also results in a bland class who's apparently so defined by being 'The Bestest at Magic' that any nerfs is seen as making the class not Wizardly enough. Wizard fans probably won't admit it, but they LIKE to be OP, they THRIVE on being able to destroy a DM's plans entirely with 1 spell they were 'good enough' to prepare for that day. If they can't be OP they whine. Agreed, 5e is terrible at making retreat a reasonable action. Plus, how many video games can you just retreat when facing a boss or a story encounter? Not that many... Wizard fans will find a way to whine either way... I think this shows that Magic School (which, BTW, are pretty badly designed anyway) is an AWFUL concept to base a subclass on. Especially if you're not gonna enforce the theme and force the Wizard to actually have spells of that school. How about a class that is granted a bonded item that grows in power with them? A magic sword that recognizes you as a strong warrior and slowly grants you more of its abilities? Or a symbiotic armor that evolves in response to your hardships? A cursed gauntlets that is satisfied when you feed it amulets and other magical trinket, and grants you extra powers to keep hunting for more? Could be a bit of a mix-n-match Warlock style class where you pick what your generic adventurer type is like (Warrior or Expert) and then the meat of your subclass is the Item you start with? Would that be an interesting class? If the DM has to do extra work so that one class doesn't overshadow others, then it's a problem. Just because the DM can enforce components and rest schedule, doesn't mean the versatility isn't a problem. The people I play with rarely play Wizard unless it's like... a necromancer. I've seen the Diviner once, played as a proper support character so that was nice, but in general my friends avoid Wizard. They know it's powerful and they also know it's got nothing going on in term of story or fluff. [/QUOTE]
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