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Message: <blockquote data-quote="bert1001 fka bert1000" data-source="post: 8749478" data-attributes="member: 7029588">Not speaking for others but I think of versaility as:1) able to contribute to a variety of goals2) able to contribute to a variety of goals in a variety of waysWhen I think about the Wizard, they are able to contribute well to many goals  --- winning combat, exploration, survival, social, infiltration, etc.Wizards also get to potentially contribute in a variety of ways.   They could infiltrate using teleport but also dominate somone to lead them in.   They can do HP damage but can also temporarly take out monsters, etc.  With the Fighter, they have good "winning combat" contributions but poor other contributions (realtive).   They also don't get "the absolute best my a mile" winning combat contributions which you would think they would get if they have very little unique ways to contribute to other goals (less versatility for more power in one category could be a thing).    They also have one main way they contribute which is lowering HPs by attacking.    There is also another factor that I often lump into versatility as short hand but really is reliability / base mechanics bypass.The Wizard through spells gets to sometimes bypass the normal attack / defend / HP / skill check / action economy / bounded accuracy mechanics.   The Fighter almost always plays within this "round by round" and "discrete checks" realm.   There is no reason any of this needs to be.The Fighter could have more versality in winning combat.   There's no reason the Fighter couldn't have some choke hold move that just takes a monster out of the fight for a few rounds.   Or a ability to reliably get from point A to point B dragging an enemy with them and breaking the action economy.    Or some way to narratively reposition enemies after attacking them.   Or whatever.   Ways to significantly contribute to winning that is martial flavored and not just attack more.The Fighter could be also more versatile in contributing to other goals.   Fighter = best in combat and poor in everything else = a poor concept to begin with.   Even if it were executed well (which it isn't), I don't think players are willing to have other classes be only ok or poor in combat given it's usually a big part in the game.    So they need something else as well.    Martial heros are often depicted as leaders of men, tactical geniuses, gadeteers (magic item forger or finder), political power, etc.    At least give them one more thing that could help them excel at other goals.   And make it significant -- you know, closer to what a Wizard can contribute.Given the super hero Wizard, I think this is easier to design if high level martials get into mythic martial territory, otherwise you probably need some kind of plot points / metacurrency or class guarunteed magic items.</blockquote>

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