Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Are Wizards really all that?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Maxperson" data-source="post: 8753625" data-attributes="member: 23751"><p>Yes, let's not have shifting goal posts and go back to wizards, not move the goal posts to wizards plus companions or wizards plus multiclass.</p><p></p><p>Something conclusive and not the, "Wizards always have enough slots to do whatever I need them to do in order to be superior, monsters never make any saves, spells that rape the mind and would be illegal make wizards superior at social, and so on." </p><p></p><p>I would need reasonable proof of superiority over all the rest of the party at the same time in all fields. </p><p></p><p>Show me with starting wizard spells, plus 2 new spells per level, how you can have the proper mix of spells memorized to beat the rogue at stealth, exploration and social, the cleric at cleric stuff, the fighter in combat, all in the same day. Lay out which slots are used for which spells and how they defeat all those other classes at their specialties, because I'm not seeing it.</p><p></p><p>You only benefit from a long rest once in a 24 hour period and they can be interrupted. Mansions can be dispelled. Rope tricks can be found and dispelled.</p><p></p><p>The wizard will at best have a 14 dex, needing con also and int being primary. With +3 proficiency(since the vast majority of PCs never see +4) and +2 for dex, the wizard is looking at +5. Compare that to the rogue who probably has a 16 or 18 and has expertise. +8 or +9 is better than +5. +10 if the player has pushed for a 20.</p><p></p><p>There are a lot of creatures with alternate senses or can see invisible things. Not all, but enough to make it unwise for the wizard to rely on invisibility and go scouting.</p><p></p><p>Those PCs are not going to be relying on invisibility and will be using other means to stay out of sight, which will help. The big part is that they are sturdier than wizards, so it's less likely that being surprised by something that could take on the whole party will knock out a ranger or rogue. The druid is probably in a normal animal form, which while weak, will tend to be overlooked by many things, which helps.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Maxperson, post: 8753625, member: 23751"] Yes, let's not have shifting goal posts and go back to wizards, not move the goal posts to wizards plus companions or wizards plus multiclass. Something conclusive and not the, "Wizards always have enough slots to do whatever I need them to do in order to be superior, monsters never make any saves, spells that rape the mind and would be illegal make wizards superior at social, and so on." I would need reasonable proof of superiority over all the rest of the party at the same time in all fields. Show me with starting wizard spells, plus 2 new spells per level, how you can have the proper mix of spells memorized to beat the rogue at stealth, exploration and social, the cleric at cleric stuff, the fighter in combat, all in the same day. Lay out which slots are used for which spells and how they defeat all those other classes at their specialties, because I'm not seeing it. You only benefit from a long rest once in a 24 hour period and they can be interrupted. Mansions can be dispelled. Rope tricks can be found and dispelled. The wizard will at best have a 14 dex, needing con also and int being primary. With +3 proficiency(since the vast majority of PCs never see +4) and +2 for dex, the wizard is looking at +5. Compare that to the rogue who probably has a 16 or 18 and has expertise. +8 or +9 is better than +5. +10 if the player has pushed for a 20. There are a lot of creatures with alternate senses or can see invisible things. Not all, but enough to make it unwise for the wizard to rely on invisibility and go scouting. Those PCs are not going to be relying on invisibility and will be using other means to stay out of sight, which will help. The big part is that they are sturdier than wizards, so it's less likely that being surprised by something that could take on the whole party will knock out a ranger or rogue. The druid is probably in a normal animal form, which while weak, will tend to be overlooked by many things, which helps. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Are Wizards really all that?
Top