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Are Wizards really all that?
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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 8753629" data-attributes="member: 7030563"><p>Sure and if the Rogue fails his thieves tools check then you can't get in at all.</p><p></p><p>This is aside from the fact that the wizard, or any character, can get thieves tools proficiency. So a Wizard can try with a lockpick and then decide whether or not to cast knock, or dimension door, or gaseous form ....</p><p></p><p></p><p>So is killing and looting, yet we do a lot of that. Further if it is illegal to use friends to give you advantage on the deception check to convince the guards you are supposed to be in this section of the castle, then it is equally illegal to just lie to them about it with expertise in deception.</p><p></p><p>There are times when a good score and expertise are better than friends, but friends will work on any charisma check (even intimidate when you are trying to get the band of orcs to surrender) and numerically it will generally match expertise.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Charm Person sets the charmed condition, which gives you <em>"advantage on any ability check to interact socially"</em>.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>In this case it is no worse than having a 20 Charisma and expertise. No "face" can do this then, and yes it is impossible to talk your way out of something.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Anything that is going to get the wizard jailed is going to get your other "face" jailed too.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, but being unable to see would pose disadvantage on the check for those that rely on sight.</p><p></p><p>Further as noted earlier, invisibility makes you obscured. A 20th level Rogue with expertise in stealth and a 22 dexterity he got from a tome has less of a chance of hiding in a well lit room than a 3rd level invisible wizard with no proficiency at all.</p><p></p><p>And that is before we even consider darkvision ..... which the Wizard has a spell for or etherealness where he is not even on the same plane.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure but he can choose those feats. Your point is the wizard can't be as good, yes he CAN. Not saying he should or that it is a good build but he CAN have a stealth ability as high as any Rogue BEFORE he boosts it further with magic.</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>Scouting ahead at all is dangerous and being at the whim of the dice, even with advantage and reliable talent is dangerous, and that is before you consider blindsight.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't care he is still a wizard. If he is in melee, dominating melee then by definition he is not "throwing around spells" but he is still a wizard, no "like" about it.</p><p></p><p>And no one said he could do both at once, I only said he can dominate melee if he wants.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>SOME Clerics do. The last cleric I played (tempest cleric with 1-level Fathomless Warlock dip) had healing word prepared and no other healing spells at all. She did none of this. </p><p></p><p>Most of her spell casting was either offensive (thunderwave, shatter, call lighting, dissonant whispers), battlefield control (fog cloud, silence) or defensive (shield of faith, sanctuary, Armor of Agathys)</p><p></p><p>The only time she cast a healing word is when a party member went down. I think I could have built a wizard to do that job just as well.</p><p></p><p>If you watched critical role you will note Jester did heal her party members often, but she did some but not a whole lot. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Not in any I have played in. Not in any I've seen on online streams.</p><p></p><p>Again, in critical role Jester used a magic item (dust of deliciousness) and a spell that wipes memories (can't remember it) to get someone to reverse a curse on another character. It worked and no one got arrested.</p><p></p><p>Critical role is high level play and I did not see any of that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>First of all rolling is the default, second there is no minimum intelligence, dexterity or constitution to play a wizard.</p><p></p><p>There is a trade off to everyting but spells cover a lot of ground. FWIW I have played a lot of wizards and I have only played one that had a higher constitution than charisma. She is a multiclassed Shadar Kai Cavalier-bladesinger I am still playing and she has a 12 con and 10 charisma and to be honest I am regretting that and wish I did it the other way around.</p><p></p><p>Most of the time on point buy I am shooting to start with an 8 strength, 16 Dex, 17 Intelligence, 10 constitution on a wizard. Then when it comes to Wisdom and Charisma split the remaining 7 with either a a 13 in one and a 10 in the other or a 14 charisma and an 8 wisdom.</p><p></p><p>I have a build I am working on that actually starts with a 8strength, 8 dex, 12 con, 16 Int, 17 Wis, 14 Charisma. It is going to be a Mountain Dwarf order cleric, enchantment Wizard in heavy armor who is going to go weaponless. To be honest it is more cleric than wizard, so I am not sure if it is really applicable to this discussion.</p><p></p><p></p><p>If it can see the invisible wizard then it can see the unobscured Rogue too.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 8753629, member: 7030563"] Sure and if the Rogue fails his thieves tools check then you can't get in at all. This is aside from the fact that the wizard, or any character, can get thieves tools proficiency. So a Wizard can try with a lockpick and then decide whether or not to cast knock, or dimension door, or gaseous form .... So is killing and looting, yet we do a lot of that. Further if it is illegal to use friends to give you advantage on the deception check to convince the guards you are supposed to be in this section of the castle, then it is equally illegal to just lie to them about it with expertise in deception. There are times when a good score and expertise are better than friends, but friends will work on any charisma check (even intimidate when you are trying to get the band of orcs to surrender) and numerically it will generally match expertise. Charm Person sets the charmed condition, which gives you [I]"advantage on any ability check to interact socially"[/I]. In this case it is no worse than having a 20 Charisma and expertise. No "face" can do this then, and yes it is impossible to talk your way out of something. Anything that is going to get the wizard jailed is going to get your other "face" jailed too. Sure, but being unable to see would pose disadvantage on the check for those that rely on sight. Further as noted earlier, invisibility makes you obscured. A 20th level Rogue with expertise in stealth and a 22 dexterity he got from a tome has less of a chance of hiding in a well lit room than a 3rd level invisible wizard with no proficiency at all. And that is before we even consider darkvision ..... which the Wizard has a spell for or etherealness where he is not even on the same plane. Sure but he can choose those feats. Your point is the wizard can't be as good, yes he CAN. Not saying he should or that it is a good build but he CAN have a stealth ability as high as any Rogue BEFORE he boosts it further with magic. Scouting ahead at all is dangerous and being at the whim of the dice, even with advantage and reliable talent is dangerous, and that is before you consider blindsight. I don't care he is still a wizard. If he is in melee, dominating melee then by definition he is not "throwing around spells" but he is still a wizard, no "like" about it. And no one said he could do both at once, I only said he can dominate melee if he wants. SOME Clerics do. The last cleric I played (tempest cleric with 1-level Fathomless Warlock dip) had healing word prepared and no other healing spells at all. She did none of this. Most of her spell casting was either offensive (thunderwave, shatter, call lighting, dissonant whispers), battlefield control (fog cloud, silence) or defensive (shield of faith, sanctuary, Armor of Agathys) The only time she cast a healing word is when a party member went down. I think I could have built a wizard to do that job just as well. If you watched critical role you will note Jester did heal her party members often, but she did some but not a whole lot. Not in any I have played in. Not in any I've seen on online streams. Again, in critical role Jester used a magic item (dust of deliciousness) and a spell that wipes memories (can't remember it) to get someone to reverse a curse on another character. It worked and no one got arrested. Critical role is high level play and I did not see any of that. First of all rolling is the default, second there is no minimum intelligence, dexterity or constitution to play a wizard. There is a trade off to everyting but spells cover a lot of ground. FWIW I have played a lot of wizards and I have only played one that had a higher constitution than charisma. She is a multiclassed Shadar Kai Cavalier-bladesinger I am still playing and she has a 12 con and 10 charisma and to be honest I am regretting that and wish I did it the other way around. Most of the time on point buy I am shooting to start with an 8 strength, 16 Dex, 17 Intelligence, 10 constitution on a wizard. Then when it comes to Wisdom and Charisma split the remaining 7 with either a a 13 in one and a 10 in the other or a 14 charisma and an 8 wisdom. I have a build I am working on that actually starts with a 8strength, 8 dex, 12 con, 16 Int, 17 Wis, 14 Charisma. It is going to be a Mountain Dwarf order cleric, enchantment Wizard in heavy armor who is going to go weaponless. To be honest it is more cleric than wizard, so I am not sure if it is really applicable to this discussion. If it can see the invisible wizard then it can see the unobscured Rogue too. [/QUOTE]
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