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Are Wizards really all that?
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<blockquote data-quote="Giant Octopodes" data-source="post: 8753829" data-attributes="member: 7037488"><p>Yeah, I don't think anyone is arguing that Wizards have superiority over the rest of the party at the same time in all fields. The argument I've seen made goes more in the vein of this: I'm looking at party composition for a party I'm looking to join. They don't have a Rogue or anyone who can effectively scout. I <em>could</em> go with a Rogue, -or- I could go with a Wizard. I could still have proficiency in thieves tools, but if a lock <em>can't</em> be opened non-magically, I have knock to fall back on. I still have proficiency in stealth, but I also have invisibility to fall back on. I have the <em>same options they do</em>, plus <em>options they do not have access to</em>. Plus, then I can help the party teleport / plane shift / whatever when needed. In a fight, I might be doing less damage than a Rogue would (Maybe, big if) but I'll also be contributing with stuff like Tasha's taking things out of a fight entirely, which a Rogue could never hope to do, because the rules do not support them doing so with any means other than HP damage. Thus, taking a Wizard would be a superior choice over taking a Rogue. </p><p></p><p>Rinse and repeat for the other classes. Not that they can replace the <em>whole party at once</em>, but that for a <em>given</em> party member, they could serve the same roles they serve as or more effectively if they are full casters instead of whatever else. A Wizard wouldn't normally be the face. But a Bard sure could be, and would likely do the job far more effectively than a Paladin would. So on and so forth.</p><p></p><p>I get that you're unconvinced by this, and that's fine. But some of the things you're arguing just don't make sense. Sure, Mansions <em>can</em> be dispelled, if something is capable of seeing invisible objects, finds wherever it was stashed away, and does so successfully. But what rational beings would do so, having blind faith they can totally still take whatever pops out, after expending spell slots or abilities to achieve the above? How does it make sense from the perspective of the creature doing the dispelling? </p><p></p><p>And again with the scouting, you continue to argue that "using other means to stay out of sight" is <em>better than</em> doing the <em>exact same thing</em> while <em>also</em> being invisible, which is just factually inaccurate. Rogues -are- sturdier than Wizards, <em>slightly. </em>On average, with similar setups, they'll have 1 more HP per level, and often 1 more AC as well. But they can't misty step or otherwise bamf out of there if something <em>does</em> notice them, so I disagree that it's less likely they will be knocked out by something which notices them.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Giant Octopodes, post: 8753829, member: 7037488"] Yeah, I don't think anyone is arguing that Wizards have superiority over the rest of the party at the same time in all fields. The argument I've seen made goes more in the vein of this: I'm looking at party composition for a party I'm looking to join. They don't have a Rogue or anyone who can effectively scout. I [I]could[/I] go with a Rogue, -or- I could go with a Wizard. I could still have proficiency in thieves tools, but if a lock [I]can't[/I] be opened non-magically, I have knock to fall back on. I still have proficiency in stealth, but I also have invisibility to fall back on. I have the [I]same options they do[/I], plus [I]options they do not have access to[/I]. Plus, then I can help the party teleport / plane shift / whatever when needed. In a fight, I might be doing less damage than a Rogue would (Maybe, big if) but I'll also be contributing with stuff like Tasha's taking things out of a fight entirely, which a Rogue could never hope to do, because the rules do not support them doing so with any means other than HP damage. Thus, taking a Wizard would be a superior choice over taking a Rogue. Rinse and repeat for the other classes. Not that they can replace the [I]whole party at once[/I], but that for a [I]given[/I] party member, they could serve the same roles they serve as or more effectively if they are full casters instead of whatever else. A Wizard wouldn't normally be the face. But a Bard sure could be, and would likely do the job far more effectively than a Paladin would. So on and so forth. I get that you're unconvinced by this, and that's fine. But some of the things you're arguing just don't make sense. Sure, Mansions [I]can[/I] be dispelled, if something is capable of seeing invisible objects, finds wherever it was stashed away, and does so successfully. But what rational beings would do so, having blind faith they can totally still take whatever pops out, after expending spell slots or abilities to achieve the above? How does it make sense from the perspective of the creature doing the dispelling? And again with the scouting, you continue to argue that "using other means to stay out of sight" is [I]better than[/I] doing the [I]exact same thing[/I] while [I]also[/I] being invisible, which is just factually inaccurate. Rogues -are- sturdier than Wizards, [I]slightly. [/I]On average, with similar setups, they'll have 1 more HP per level, and often 1 more AC as well. But they can't misty step or otherwise bamf out of there if something [I]does[/I] notice them, so I disagree that it's less likely they will be knocked out by something which notices them. [/QUOTE]
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