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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8756796" data-attributes="member: 87792">If you are going to invent your own terminology please don't take existing official terminology and copy the words. It's even worse than finding a new meaning for the word "level" because at least you know level is a confusing word.But the simple answer is level 9 is, I agree, very different from level 8 if you are a primary spellcaster. Level 5 spells are a lot wider in scope than level 4 spells.  It's where you really get the strategic spells like Teleportation Circle or Wall of Stone. It's even very different from level 8 if you are a secondary caster and break into third level spells.But if you're not a caster? If you're a fighter at level 9 you get to use Indomitable 1/day. Thrilling. If you're a barbarian you get Brutal Critical. What rapture. If you're a monk you get to run over water and up walls - which looks good on paper, but the wizard's been flying and had the water walking ritual long enough that this is late to the party. And the rogue? They get a subclass ability - and their level 9 subclass abilities are often notably bad.Even if we look at the captstone level 11 abilities? The fighter gets a third attack. Which fundamentally doesn't change their capability - they still kick people's arses in combat, attacking them in the same way and doing damage in the same way, just doing more damage per round. The barbarian's level 11 ability looks good on paper but prevents three papercuts. The monk gets a subclass ability. But it's not huge. Only the rogue really changes what they can do at level 11 (by basically never failing a skill check).And this is the problem. The four non-casters don't enter what you consider tier 3 at level 9. The fighter and the barbarian never really change the scope of what they do unless they have seriously OP subclasses. The Rogue does at level 11. And the Monk does at level 14. The problem isn't Teleportation Circle. It's up against spells like Passwall, Banishment, Wall of Force, Wall of Stone (for the permanent effect) and numerous others. The problem is that the rogue and monk turn up late into what you call Tier 3 - and the fighter and barbarian never turn up at all. The problem here is not with the full casters.</blockquote>

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