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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8758833" data-attributes="member: 87792">You mean I wouldn't know:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Liches were both undead famous for returning? Wrong. That one's got out in popular culture</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Dragons were huge? I'm looking at the dragons in character</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Dragons have a literal Frightful Presence? That is normally used in the first round. Or even reports of the dragon</li> </ol>I'm playing a character that's supposed to live in the world. Not a character from an Isikai who has never even heard of these creatures before - and everything I suggestedSo what you are saying is that out of five dragons three have strength saves that are higher than their dexterity, in one case it's equal, and in one case the dex save is higher by a single point. No, I don't think I got this wrong.Yeah, going for Dex over Strength is playing the odds well.And you'd be incorrect. Wisdom saves aren't always great. Int is always the worst, Con is always the best and Cha second for any dragon larger than a wyrmling.Adult Red: Dex +6, Wis +7, Str +8Adult Blue: Dex +5, Wis +7, Str +7Adult Black: Wis +6, Str + 6, Dex +7Adult Green: Str +6, Dex +6, Wis +7Adult White: Dex +5, Str +6, Wis +6, Cha(!) +6So for adult dragons in specific Intelligence is always their worst save, and then in four out of five cases Dexterity is their second worst save and in one case it's one point higher. Their wisdom save is within one point of their strength save at the adult size category and averages at exactly the same. Charisma is always second best and constitution best.Even if we go down to young (i.e. large size) then the relationship is roughly the same. Int is the worst, then Dex in four out of five cases. Fighting it out for third best save is Strength and Wisdom (dragons have proficiency in wisdom saves but much higher raw strength). Charisma's second and Constitution first. Wyrmling and it changes - but my predictions were based in part on the size of the dragon and wyrmlings aren't large.So, I predicted the top three saving throws (constitution, charisma, strength) as saves to avoid and what is in four out of five dragon categories the second weakest save as one to target based on pretty easily available information. The only thing I had no way of predicting is that all dragons are proficient in Wisdom and not Intelligence saves. Four out of six including the top two saves and the equal third to avoid. Which I don't think is bad.Incidentally, this relationship (large creatures have high enough stats in Str and Con that they might as well be proficient even when they aren't and are almost impossible when they are) is an issue monks suffer from; Stunning Fist struggles at higher levels as it targets the save that big monsters pass.</blockquote>

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