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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 8762180" data-attributes="member: 7030563">It only has to be more than 1 time in 20 attacks to overcome the 1 point advantage in dex/strength the fighter has.  Giving myself advantage in 5 attacks a day will mean I hit more than him ..... and nimble escape is not a spell.Because bonus action hide can make you unseen and give you advantage on your next attack which sunbstantially increases your chance to hit with an attack/If you are invisible you don't need to hide to have advantage on the attack.I don't understand the question vis-a-vis disguise self and invisibility.  Disguise self is not concentration and can be active at the same time as invisibility.Finally the spells you have give you options that offer multiple ways to tackle a situation.  There is a guard post ahead, I cna cast invisibility and sneak by them or I can cast disguise self and try to bluff my way past them, or I can cast disguise self and minor illusion to really fool them into thinking something is going on, or I can try to just sneak past like the Rogue would try.  With spells you can try any of those, which one is the "right" answer depends on the situation.Examining locks, looking for traps are actions.  A Rogue can move and do those at the same time.  This is RAW, you are houseruling it if you are saying he can't move and take an action on the same turn.Heck it states in the rules that a Thief or Arcane Trickster can open locks as a bonus action while both moving and taking another action like attacking or dashing.No it doesn't.  RAW search is an action, it is PART of a 6-second turn.Sure if you make so called "realistic" homebrew it will slow the game down, but that is not RAW.  RAW search is an action - 6 seconds!Sure if there is not a 1-inch gap (if there is then it can go uin those drawers or under those close.  But if there is nothing there you walk in and do that while your eye moves on to a different area.  Your eye is scouting the area.Now I do agree here that you need to describe what you are doing like opening drawers etc, but as long as those are in close proximity it is 6 seconds to do it.You are throwing up a bunch of strawman arguements here that are not really relevant to the brroader question.  I think it is far more likely that there will be you know monsters in the room and the Rogue won't even be able to look around at all without a high risk of being caughtRAW 6 seconds, while you are also taking a bounus action and moving.  Search is even listed as an action in combat.What if your Rogue wants to search for a secret door during combat?  Are you going to tell him he can't do that because in my game it takes a minute to search?That is not what I said.  I did not say casting it makes me better than the Rogue, I said having at as an option, in addition to being able to pick a lock with thieves tools makes me better than the Rogue.  And it does.I play more Rogues than any other class and they regularly fail to pick locks.  Maybe if that happens they are screwed and they just don't get it open because it is too dangerous.  Maybe they wait and clear the dungeon and cast it, maybe it is ok Having those options makes him better, being rarely used is still being used.I play more Rogues  than anythign else and they REGULARLY fail lock picking checks.  Even if you have a Rogue with expertise he is going to fail lock pick checks and most of the time he makes them he would have made them with regular proficiency (i.e. what the Wizard has)Sure.  And there is no garuntee the Rogue manages to pick the lock in the first place, and if he does most of the time the wizard would have as well.How many locks have a DC between 28 and 30, because if there are unlimited tries those are the only locks that matter and only when you can't use knock.Usually if you fail to  pick the lock on a door the monsters on the other side will know you tried to pick it and if we have time to reroll over and over talking about rerolls the Rogue automatically opens a lock with a DC of 30 and the wizard autromatically opens one with a DC of 27.  That means iff you can roll over and over again the only time this matters is if the DC is 28, 29 or 30, and once the wizard hits 12th level it won't matter at all.Seriously Dungeon of a mad mage is a level 5-20 adventure.  In that entire thing how many locks are there with a DC of 28-30 where you have an infinite time to open, because if we get unlimited rerolls these are the only locks the Rogue is better at.Also I wil point out that in your houserules above it takes more than a turn to open a lock, so if you are making him spend 10 minutes on an attempt then this is a lot of time to keep rerolling.No I haven't.  I never said he has a dozen spell slots to opena chest on the way out. You said that.  He has one or two for when he can't get the chest open (perhaps it can't be picked at all).  I actually have an example in play for this - Tomb of Annihilation has a series of chests that can't be picked.  You can solve a puzzle to open them, or you can open them with knock.And by the way I have up to 16 slots a day, not just 12.I  ...... HAVE  ........ MORE ..........SLOTS ...... THEN..... I......NEED .... TO ..... BEAT ..... THE .... ROGUE.I have used real examples from published adventures to illustrate my point.  Why don't you give me some examples  to support yours?If you are playing by RAW and using the rules-based time it takes to do things you will have less than an hour between short rests unless you have long distances to travelThere is no getting around that.Again I gave examples , reallyover the top examples that would take less than an hour to complete.   Give me an example of what you have to spend time doing, other than overland travel and rest, such that you could not get in your 8 encounters in an hour of adventuring.That was for disguise self specifically, which lasts an hour and is not concentration.  Invisibility though too would be active well into a short rest if you did not attack or cast a spell after casting it last.I am going through the dungeoun at my walking speed, and making actions using the timing afforded in the rules.Healing too is typically an action through either a potion or spell, occiasionally up to a minute.  So if someone casts one of those long 1-minute casting time healing spells, well then you spend 31 minutes adventuring that day instead of 30.If a 20th level cleric used every single slot he had to cast a level-appropriate healing spell I still don't think you could get to 10 minutes of time spent healing.  The only other healing you do is part of a short rest and adds no time at all (outside the time for the rest)Search is an action and listed on page 193.  Opening a lock is either an interatcing with an object (page 190), use an object action (page 193) or a bonus action for Thieves (97) or Arcane Tricksters (98). Name a published adventure with a dungeon where this is NOT the case.Please show me just ONE published dungeon where it would take more than 20 minutes to complete the first 2-3 encounters (which is the time it would take before yourHere are examples of WOTC adventures that correlate to the times I have laid out:Ghosts of Saltmarsh Sahagin LairGhosts of Saltmarsh Lizardman LairPrinces of the Appocoplypse Temple of Elemental FlamePrinces of the Appocolypse Temple of Black EarthMost of the actual published dungeons that do not fall within that actually have fewer than 6 encounters in them total. No 1 spell - disguise self - that is not concentration.  If you are going to use your Arcane Eye then you use it, explore the entire dungeon (sans any doors you can't go through), that takes about 5 minutes, maybe less, then drop concentration on that, cast invisibility sneak where you want to sneak.  Decide which 2-3 encounters you are going to do now, do those encounters then take a short rest.  3 spells, all cast in probably 10 minutes and disguise self is still active. Cast disguise self and invisiblity then do the next 2-3 enocunters, get both your second level slots back with arcane recovery.Cast disguise self and invisibility do your last 2-3 encounters.So I have cast 7 spells and I have 9 slots left at the end of that (1 1st, 2 2nd, 3 3rd, 1 4th).  Probably I cast some of those in combat, or maybe for social interactions or god forbid i might have even used knock, so I don't have all those spells left, but the situation I described does not require "dozens of spells" Earlier you said the Arcane Eye set them all off.  Also sho said I was not searching for traps, and with my intelligence  my investigation is even better than the Rogues.The only problem here is the beds, dressers, closets, sacrophgi, piles of refuse etc.  I can only do one of those at a time because it requires an interact with an object in addition to the search action.  So to search ALL of that stuff would be 30 seconds.  Can you provide a single example from a published adventure that has that volume of stuff all within 60 feet?  Also chewing gum would also be interact with an object, so if I wanted to do that while chewing gum that is another 6 seconds, but I would not do that.  I might smoke a pipe depending on the character.It is like this - you are in a bedroom with a bed, dresser and desk.  I search the bed, dresser and desk and I unlock the desk drawer.  The time that takes:12 seconds for an arcane trickser with mage hand precast (18 seconds if I have to cast it)18 seconds for a thief or inquisitive24 seconds for anyone elseAdd in the 4 rounds of combat to clear the room and you are in and out in a minute and moving on to the next encounter.  If the next encounter is 60 feet away that is 12 more seconds.Either you stick to 6-8 encounters or you don't.  If you stick to that and you give me 8 encounters while I am in camp, doing downtime or resting then I am not encountering those things in the hour or so I am actively adventuring.  Sure, so I go from being the most powerful character on the battlefield to being just above average.No the rules dictate it.Give me an example of a published dungeon that would take longer than I mention.As long as he sticks to RAW it will not take hours of adventuring.I have asked you repeatedly to give me examples of dungeons where I would have to spend hours going through 2-3 encounters.  You have nto provided a single one.Picking a lock is using theives tools.  That is an action, unless you are a  thief or Arcane Trickster where it is a bonus action.  Opening a lock is actually an object interaction (PHB page 193)Yeah because you make up house rules and nerf spells like Arcane EyeSo it takes longer to open a lock out of combat then in combat?  That makes no sense.30 feet in 6 seconds is not "moving quickly"Those rules are designed for overland travel and I will point out that that same section also lists 300 feet per minute (30 feet per turn) and 3 miles per hour as "normal" place.  So it would stand to reason if you cite this that I could make perception checks without penalty while also moving 30 feet per turn.Who is jogging?  I am using the bonus action dash, that is part of the Rogues abilities.  I can do that and also search and if it needs to be in combat I can declare I am in combat with the walls so I can do it.Yes it would.  6 seconds is all he needsSearch action - 6 seconds, while also moving, doing an interact with an object and a bonus action.Nothing suggests the eye can be destroyed .... but it is better to destroy the eye than the Rogue.If a spell can be affected by damage it says so - for example Bigby's Hand or mirror image.You could rule that blindness could affect it, but even that is ambiguous.What if I try to destroy the black tentacles the wizard cast?  That is an object.  It does not say it is indestructable.  So it has 1 hp, I just attack it once and and kill it.  Wow it is a weak 4th level spell, why would anyone ever try to get out of it the normal way.Maybe this would work for hypnotic pattern or fireball too.  I ready an action and once the spell is cast I attack and destroy his fireball once he casts it.  That makes no sense and it makes no sense for Arcane Eye either.  It is a strawman you are throwing up because you know you are wrong.I actually agree on this and pointed out as much in my 2nd post.Again, go look at the pbulished dungeons.  This vaires, but usually most of the dungeon layout is available.  Further as I mentioned earlier, it is dangerous for a scouting rogue to open doors.Well you did look for traps eariler, but you can also search while you walk in at full speedlYou move on finish exploring what you can and then start exploring with your party.Yes and it will not be uncommon to hear nothing and then open the door on a room full of monsters.I play lots of Rogues (more than Wizards) and I scout a lot with those Rogues but I don't open a lot of blind doors by myself and you will not last if you do unless you have some kind of magic to aid you.  In this exact example, the Rogue without magic is likely dead if he opens a door deep into a dungeon full of guards and there are a number of unheard monsters in it.  The Arcane Eye can't open it at all, but a Wizard has a much greater chance of surviving such a calamity because of the magic at his disposal.Ho many times am I going to have to say this - you use the Arcane Eye BEFORE you go in.   I will say this - you can completely explore and clear any published dungeon in an hour searching every single room, not counting short rests.  If there were not 6-8 encounters then maybe you get them in camp when you are not exploring, sneaking or adventuring and in that case you did not use many spells because you did not find any monsters in the dungeon.I say again, give me an example of a published dungeon where this is not possible.Well disguise self is not concentration, but you absolutely lose the eye before an hour.   The eye is up for about 10 minutes, gets the layout of the entire dungeon (including areas you intend to go after your 1st and 2nd short rest) then you drop concentration, cast disguise self and head in.  You cast invisibility then if necessary. If invisibility is not necessary then you keep the eye around (maybe waiting at one of those closed doors) until you need to cast something with concentration.Unless you get attacked and lose concentration, I don't think you ever need to cast AE more than once.  The amount of ground it can cover in an hour is IMMENSE.Even if you are exploring an entire ruined city (like Omu in Tomb of Anihilation for example) you can usually get in every single building in an hour.   That is several days worth of encounters that you are serveiling in one hour.Then it is infinite failures for a Rogue too.  All I need is 1 that is not to be better positioned.It says "every direction" not "any direction"  there is a difference there.  Seeing in every direction is not the same as seeing on one direction at a time.Minor Illusion can be cast from out of sight.  The idea would be to get the guards to move in the direction of the sound (or alternatively flee depending on the sound you make).  If they don't move then it would fall under one of those DM-ruled "certain circumstances" mentioned above.  Most DMs  I play with would make this auto fail if I was not obscured though.Then please explain why attackers are not "unseen" and get advantage in combat simply by positioning?  Moreover how do you decide which direction everyone is looking when there are no facing rules?Finally PHB page 177 - "In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature it usually sees you"Note it says "all around" above, meaning in every direction simultaneously.  Further how could it "see" you if it can only see in one direction and finally if it can "see" you and the fighter is on the other side if it then it would not be able to "see" the fighter and would be at disadvantage to attack him.Opening a door in an object interaction and part of a turn along with an action, bonus, movement.  If you have to also unlock the door that is an action and object interaction which are completed in 6 seconds (unless you fail your check).  If you are a thief or an Arcane Archer with your mage hand out you could try again to unlock it in that same 6 seconds.Flanking has nothing to do with facing and to be flanked you have to be adjacent.  If flanking was facing having an archer at range on one side and a fighter on the other would cause advantage and it doesn't.  There is actually a facing optional rule in 5,E but I never played at any table that used it and it has nothing to do with flanking.  Also the optional facing rule only applies to creatures, it does NOT apply to objects.Well if you are not facing a specific direction then how do you determine which direction you can see in?  Either you have facing or you don't.If you need an explanation, a round is 6 seconds.  It is assumed you are look in every direction during that 6 seconds.   Hence you are looking "everywhere" during that round.  6 seconds is more than enough time to look entirely around you. It is usually impossible at most tables unless the enemies move out of sight or the DM dictates that this is an specific ircumstance that overides this.If you wear armor you are not proficient you have disadvantage.  A Mountain Dwarf Rogue is not proficient in heavy armor unless he has a feat or a multiclass (and if we want to go down that road I could substantially buff that Wizard).Nope, about 5 slots not counting combat.</blockquote>

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