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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GMforPowergamers" data-source="post: 8762230" data-attributes="member: 67338">no fighter has better then +5 str so... I don't get thisso turn into an ape or something... it's not that hard to find animals to turn intonot with a PC mind behind it... at least not in my experience right, and I aam 100% behind using the "Not optimal" but not "Oh let me cast darkness and screw all my melee allies"no it isn't.... when you say that a down side is the wizard has a limited number of spells, then YES tthe number of choices the other class gets matters.unless you have a warlock that can see through magical darkness I don't agree... the fact that YOU yourself said it screws your allies makes me question how 'tactically sound' you really find itnot a good one...  a legitimist strategy if you don't have a swiss army win button prepped is to fall back on weapons or cantrips, not throwing debuffs that hit your allies. I have seen wizards clerics and druids caught without the right spells prepped. I have seen warlocks sorcerers and bards caught without the right spell known (I would throw the half casters in too but you get the idea)   I have never seen one turn around and cast a spell that makes the fight harder. I see them fall back on a damage spell or cantrip, a buff on a party member or a weapon attack.again you went out of your way to not just pick a spell that wont help but one that debuffs allies. It is a deadly mistake, but then again the fighter could choose to shout and jump up and down for a round... it doesn't seem like a fair thing to bring into the comparison. fighters almost all take str or dex as there first highest stat.  wizards (any caster really) take there casting stat as there highest most times... Con is equally important to both. My last wizard (a few years ago) had more hp then the fighter/rogue/ranger.  My warlock (way more resent) had the 2nd highest HP and the Highest AC in the party. I'm sorry but WHAT!?!?! a 20 AC AND a 20 COn... and I assume a 20 str or dex... maybe both!?!?if the fighter has 2 20's in stats, then the wizard should have a 20 and an 18. (in this neither has feats so no -5+10 for you) a fighter that starts with 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8. I will put the 15 in str and the 14 in con and 13 in wis and 12 and 10 in int and cha and an 8 in dex... give him half plate armor and a shield (17) to start but will get the full plate (20) over 5 or 6 levels... take a fighting style as defensive will get you to 21 (if you have a weapon or shield ready so not if surprised) now you get +2/+1 and that will bring you to start to17 str  8 dex  14 Con 10 Int 14 wis 12 Cha     AC 17at level 4 you get +2 so 19 str  8 dex  14 Con 10 Int 14 wis 12 Chaat level 6 you get +1/+1 so   20 str  8 dex  15 Con 10 Int 14 wis 12 Chaat level 8 you get +2 so  20 str  8 dex  17 Con 10 Int 14 wis 12 Chaat 12th you get a +2 so 20 str  8 dex  19 Con 10 Int 14 wis 12 Chaat 14th level you can take a half feat for +1  20 str  8 dex  19 Con 10 Int 14 wis 12 Chathe wizard will start with  10 str  14 dex  14 Con  17 Int  12 wis  8 Cha at level 4 they get +2  10 str  14 dex  14 Con  19 Int  12 wis  8 Cha at level 8 +1/+1 for  10 str  14 dex  15 Con  20 Int  12 wis  8 Cha at level 12 +2 for  10 str  14 dex  17 Con  20 Int  12 wis  8 Cha so sorry the wizard DOES only have a 17 in con (or 16 and a half feat)of course now lets do the AC of the Wizard, do they have light armor for studded leather or are they useing mage armor? 15 AC seems much lower then that 17 or 21 max... but again any non suprise round that can boost to a 20... or more. do you think fighters roll con attack rolls? I had to take it up to 14th level before this was noticable (and by then the wizard is rocking 7th level spells) max is 20 IF you have full plate (that no one starts with so DM required) the only prebuffs I hear about are 8hour or permenent ones... that isn't much of an ask.wait... what?!?! have you ever seen eldritch blast used?on average more physical, but not str per say, it is as likely they go dex sense it is the better stat.bladesingers, war clerics, sword or valor bards, and hex blades make attack rolls all the time, so do some % of spells have attack rolls (especially cantrips)</blockquote>

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