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Message: <blockquote data-quote="wingsandsword" data-source="post: 3999216" data-attributes="member: 14159">I already wasn't thrilled with what I was seeing of 4e, and seeing that instead of adapting the system to fit the setting they were trashing the Realms to shoehorn it into 4e sealed the deal of me not wanting to buy or play 4e.  Rewriting the map also didn't help (I've got the big 4-part poster map from Dragon from years ago on my wall, all framed and everything, so admittedly I'm shy about parting with it).Yes, big "RSE"'s are part of the setting, but the last big one was still pretty recent, comparatively speaking.  The Fall of Netheril/Karsus's Folly, the Dawn Cataclysm, previously big events like that were centuries or millennia apart, with the Time of Troubles (a.k.a. Avatar Crisis/Godswar) being the latest in the series.  A cataclysm even bigger than the Avatar Crisis less than three decades later seems forced.  It reminds me of what was done to Krynn, with so many huge cataclysmic events happening in one lifetime (the gods are back, the gods are gone again and all known magic with them, the gods back yet again, each time with a world-shaking war, and with a huge game system jump in the middle. . .).It feels like it's now the Forsaken Realms, a dark post-apocalyptic setting where most of the gods are dead, demons are running rampant, magic has gone berserk, the map has been redrawn, and aside from a few big kingdoms most of the world is in a new Dark Age.  Then again, I didn't agree with the "points of light" concept to begin with, much less sledgehammering the Realms into being Points of Light with Realms names added on.  "It's a hundred years in the future, Shar killed Mystra and kept her from reincarnating, and then magic went wild and ravaged the world in these waves of blue fire.  Fighting among the gods has killed most of them, and the planes are rearranged now too.   Most of the famous NPC's are dead, and Baldur's Gate is the biggest city now, and a race of dragonmen appeared out of nowhere and is now a main PC race, and tieflings are now a main PC race too. . ."  Think how those changes sound.  If I didn't know it was the new "official" Realms if I was told about it I would swear it was some idea that some Goth/Emo 13 year old DM came up with.I never got the problems people said they had with the Realms though. . .Lots of famous NPC's.  Nothing says they all have to appear in your game or show up regularly.  I have run the Realms for years and famous big names appear very rarely, and even then usually as cameos or plot hooks.  Elminster and Drizzt aren't there to sweep in and save the day for the PC's, they are there to be heroes of novels and video games and provide a way for players to feel like they are in the same setting as the novels and video games they play.  A well played short encounter with Elminster can do more to give a "Realms" feeling to a game than any number of precisely recreated small towns or tiny inns from some obscure book or Dragon article.Lots of backstory/canon.  I didn't understand this problem either.  That's the appeal, the world is very fleshed out and detailed, to help it feel real.  Yes, for somebody to know it all would be an insane task, and if you have players that are incredible canon nuts that will flip out if you change one inn or one NPC's name it's a problem, but I've never encountered that in real life, only on message boards.  In reality, I'm a big fan and know the canon pretty well, well enough to run a game lavish in details for casual players that know the basics of the setting and may have read a few novels or played Baldur's Gate or (going way back) Pool of Radiance.  If my PC's point to some random location on the map and say "Let's teleport there!" I can look up that land and what it's like and look up that town or whatever and be ready to run quickly, instead of having no idea what most of the world is like aside from a few famous spots.Lots of Gods.  This was something else I saw as a big strength of the setting, that was trashed by the events leading to 4e.  There were so many deities providing many churches and orders as NPC organizations to work with (or against), and enough that just about any character could find a religion that fit them fairly well.  Not every god is going to have a temple in every town, not even close, some were worshipped in only fairly limited places (Siamorphe being mainly worshipped in Waterdeep comes to mind), so it's not like towns had malls of temples.Getting rid of most of the personalities, pantheon and world gets rid of most of what makes it Forgotten Realms.  These "Fourgotten Realms" seem like just the generic "Points of Light" setting with some Realms names and details added on to help it sell.</blockquote>

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