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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mercule" data-source="post: 7605844" data-attributes="member: 5100">I think we're using the same term for two different things. There may be room for both, but I definitely don't think they should overlap.I'm coming from the perspective of an Eberron GM. In that setting, the artificer is explicitly someone who treats magic as a craft/industry. They make golems, bind elementals to power airships, create magic swords, etc. It may not be your thing, but that's the itch I want scratched and "artificer" is the term WotC decided to use for that role in 3.5, so it carries that weight.It sounds like you're wanting an actual engineer or crafty-scientist. Not something I really care about, but I don't have a problem with it existing. Let's use your term of "tinkerer", just to use a name that isn't already claimed.Now, I really don't care much if WotC decides the term "artificer" would be better for the tinkerer. Just don't try to tie it to Eberron. Tell us what the new name for the Eberron artificer will be and move on. I do think that's a bit silly, considering there are more words that work for engineer/tinkerer than for the Eberron artificer, but not worth getting too bent out of shape about. What they shouldn't do is make one class that hit both buckets. Pick a lane and stay in it.The easiest illustration of this is the firearms sidebar. For the Eberron concept of an artificer -- treating magic as technology -- there is absolutely no reason to correlate artifice to firearms. In fact, it's kinda silly, since the artificer would gravitate towards wands and similar items (in fact, the artillerist archetype doubles down on this). I could actually make a case that the sidebar should say, "even if firearms are present in your setting, the artificer does not begin play with proficiency in firearms." On the other hand, it would be absurd to restrict the tinkerer from firearms and there's a pretty strong case that the tinkerer should have firearm proficiency even if the campaign has limited access to firearms and no other class can use them.There's a middle ground of steampunk, JRPGs, and the like where you would mix magic and technology. That's either a bad idea or a third lane. Unless that's specifically your thing, I get ketchup on my chocolate and you have peanut butter on your fries. Create another class for it? Maybe. If all three exist, I'm going to list the artificer as an approved class, allow the tinkerer if someone asks, and tell the steampunker to go away (in fairly rude terms).</blockquote>

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