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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kilroy" data-source="post: 2572632" data-attributes="member: 5299">I've started in a game at over 1st level once in about 20 groups since 3.0 came out, under 6 different GMs with different groups of players.  Rogues have consistently been frustrated more than other classes at their inability to do anything in many situations.  (Specific characters, such as a mind bender in a construct/undead heavy story arc and a horse/bow warrior in a dungeon campaign, have been more useless, but they're fairly isolated exceptions.)Rogues do two things, Skills and Sneak Attack.Skills:At lower levels, rogues can't make skill checks much more reliably than anyone else, certainly not enough to do things that are dangerous.  Even against high level rogues, anything advanced enough to have a guard dog can make sneaking impossible.  At high levels (as low as 5+) casters have the resources to do the dangerous things better than the rogue more than the rogue can do them better than the caster.  Past about 7th there's no contest.An adamantine greatsword is the world's best lockpick - Knock is only needed on those rare doors that need to stay intact.  Silence trumps Move Silently.  Invisibility trumps Hide.  Charm Person and Detect Thoughts usually trump Search, Disable Device and most social skills.  These aren't high level abilities, they're first or second level throw away spells that usually end up on scrolls.  They're usually better than skills without even being the main focus of their respective classes.  When you do need a skill check, Divine Insight makes a cleric better than a rogue at anything but trap finding.  For that they need another second level spell, or a single level of rogue.  The only thing that someone else isn't better at is finding traps, and rogues are only good at that if your players AND your characters have all the time in the world.  If you're in a hurry, summoned or charmed monsters find traps really well, or a charmed person tells you where they all are anyway.  Regardless, any given rogue is going to suck at at least some of their skills, while a caster can trivially have the magic that replaces all of them.Social skills are better done by a class that has other uses for charisma, and in the games I've played in, come up infrequently or unimportantly enough that they aren't worth maxing as a skill.  Charisma usually comes up after Dex, Int, Con and Str for a rogue.I'm sure it's possible to construct a setup where a skill is required, or magic isn't the favored way of dealing with things, but that's not been the case in the vast majority of the campaigns I've ever been in, playing through custom worlds or published story arcs.Sneak Attack:Creatures immune to sneak attack are hella-common.  Not just constructs, but undead, incorporial critters, other rogues, barbarians, high AC critters, casters with concealment spells, anyone with fortification, oozes, plants, regenerating creatures, druids with a level of warshaper, flying creatures and anything in the dark have all made it impossible to sneak attack in games I've been in.  With all the things that make sneak attack unusable, it's massivly underpowered damage compared to a fighter who can just wade in and not worry nearly as much about creature type and positioning, or a caster who can end a fight in a round, often with no save.If a creature has high spell resistance or saves, casters still have tons of ways to hit them, more with every new book.  If nothing else, they can buff the fighters instead.  If a creature's immune to sneak attacks, the rogue is best off just hiding until the fight is done.It's possible for a rare and very well played rogue to be played devastating-ly, but an even half attentive caster is devastating all the important times, and a really well played caster is the evil boy scout son of MacGyver that every rogue dreams of being.You're right that the best rogues are multiclassed.  Why is that?  The best casters aren't.</blockquote>

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