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<blockquote data-quote="Kilroy" data-source="post: 2578106" data-attributes="member: 5299">The counter to this is that skill checks fail opposed checks when you need them in situations where spells don't.&nbsp; It's not a matter of &quot;better in all cases&quot;, it's &quot;usually better when it really matters.&quot;&nbsp; The other important part is flexibility.&nbsp; When you're 10th level and Forgery gets rolled for the first time, the rogue is out of luck (unless they blew 13 ranks on an unusual skill they've never used) and the cleric still gets a +15 from Divine Insight for what's probably a critical role.&nbsp; A high level rogue isn't much better than Joe Commoner at the vast majority of the 45 PHB skills, but a high level caster with a clue probably has low level spells to fake nearly all of them.&nbsp; If a caster can fake or replace skills, why can't a rogue?Diplomacy was probably a bad example though, it's better done by someone with more use for Charisma.&nbsp; (Remember, I'm coming at this from a power balance perspective, not a flavor one.)&nbsp; Even with 0 ranks, a Sorc is probably better on average at the 6 main Cha based social skills than a Rogue, unless the rogue has focused almost entirely on social skills and Charisma, in which case they can't do much else.I really hate most social skills anyway.&nbsp; Last session, our ronin's player gave a long, well reasoned and eloquent speech on some in game schmoozing we were doing, then promptly rolled a 3 on his Diplomacy check.&nbsp; At least what the DM came up with for his character to say was funny, but I can't repeat it or grandma will blush.&nbsp; It's sad that dice said he couldn't say that, but that's the only time in 13 levels his character has rolled Diplomacy for something non-inane, so it would have been a totally wasted skill for him.Don't do that!&nbsp; that would be as silly as rogue sneaking within 20 feet of a guard, with the same line of effect that silence has, because he doesn't have concealment and can't hide at all then.&nbsp; Much less bring the whole group.How often does that come up?&nbsp; Other than our ninja, who is insane and Hides overnight in monster lairs to 'keep an eye on them', I can't think of that ever being useful.&nbsp; Spells usually last &quot;long enough.&quot;If you're powerful enough to pierce a magical disguise with magic, you're easily powerful enough to pierce a nonmagical one.&nbsp; Detect Thoughts is pretty hard to fool with a skill (a DC 100 Epic Bluff check is required to beat this particular second level spell), particularly for Ow-my-low-single-digit-Will-Save! rogues, and again, only second level.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Kilroy, post: 2578106, member: 5299"] The counter to this is that skill checks fail opposed checks when you need them in situations where spells don't. It's not a matter of "better in all cases", it's "usually better when it really matters." The other important part is flexibility. When you're 10th level and Forgery gets rolled for the first time, the rogue is out of luck (unless they blew 13 ranks on an unusual skill they've never used) and the cleric still gets a +15 from Divine Insight for what's probably a critical role. A high level rogue isn't much better than Joe Commoner at the vast majority of the 45 PHB skills, but a high level caster with a clue probably has low level spells to fake nearly all of them. If a caster can fake or replace skills, why can't a rogue? Diplomacy was probably a bad example though, it's better done by someone with more use for Charisma. (Remember, I'm coming at this from a power balance perspective, not a flavor one.) Even with 0 ranks, a Sorc is probably better on average at the 6 main Cha based social skills than a Rogue, unless the rogue has focused almost entirely on social skills and Charisma, in which case they can't do much else. I really hate most social skills anyway. Last session, our ronin's player gave a long, well reasoned and eloquent speech on some in game schmoozing we were doing, then promptly rolled a 3 on his Diplomacy check. At least what the DM came up with for his character to say was funny, but I can't repeat it or grandma will blush. It's sad that dice said he couldn't say that, but that's the only time in 13 levels his character has rolled Diplomacy for something non-inane, so it would have been a totally wasted skill for him. Don't do that! that would be as silly as rogue sneaking within 20 feet of a guard, with the same line of effect that silence has, because he doesn't have concealment and can't hide at all then. Much less bring the whole group. How often does that come up? Other than our ninja, who is insane and Hides overnight in monster lairs to 'keep an eye on them', I can't think of that ever being useful. Spells usually last "long enough." If you're powerful enough to pierce a magical disguise with magic, you're easily powerful enough to pierce a nonmagical one. Detect Thoughts is pretty hard to fool with a skill (a DC 100 Epic Bluff check is required to beat this particular second level spell), particularly for Ow-my-low-single-digit-Will-Save! rogues, and again, only second level. [/QUOTE]

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