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<blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7488704" data-attributes="member: 6919838">Just to be clear... I dont think the &quot;yes patrons and gods can cut the power to their followers/pawns&quot; are suggesting it as common or anything to be done to remove free will or as any immediate response to any slight.They are, at least I am, saying it is a part that needs to be considered in the player gm discussion about those classes and what the agreements between character and patron/divine.If the patron-pact and deity-cleric is, as some suggest, restrained to only (on the divine/patron side) capabilities **explicitly stated in the rules** then it is not a relationship, not a pact, but a case of an enslaved divinity or patron. The patron/divine is not explicitly allowed to removes powers... well it also isn't explicitly allowed to refuse leveling, to spy on its pawn/follower.So if you take that approach, it's not anything the character has to concern with or player discuss... the patron/divine just lays down and offers up power. That's why, imo, the classes make sure to emphasize working out the details with gm-player and character-patton on same page.Maybe one pair handles it with permanent endowments. Maybe others dont. But player agency should not be so transformed into granting unilateral control over arrangements with NPCs, imo. But others may have different views.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="5ekyu, post: 7488704, member: 6919838"] Just to be clear... I dont think the "yes patrons and gods can cut the power to their followers/pawns" are suggesting it as common or anything to be done to remove free will or as any immediate response to any slight. They are, at least I am, saying it is a part that needs to be considered in the player gm discussion about those classes and what the agreements between character and patron/divine. If the patron-pact and deity-cleric is, as some suggest, restrained to only (on the divine/patron side) capabilities **explicitly stated in the rules** then it is not a relationship, not a pact, but a case of an enslaved divinity or patron. The patron/divine is not explicitly allowed to removes powers... well it also isn't explicitly allowed to refuse leveling, to spy on its pawn/follower. So if you take that approach, it's not anything the character has to concern with or player discuss... the patron/divine just lays down and offers up power. That's why, imo, the classes make sure to emphasize working out the details with gm-player and character-patton on same page. Maybe one pair handles it with permanent endowments. Maybe others dont. But player agency should not be so transformed into granting unilateral control over arrangements with NPCs, imo. But others may have different views. [/QUOTE]

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