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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Desdichado" data-source="post: 5198227" data-attributes="member: 2205">So... in other words, house rules suffered because the expectation on how good those house rules had become was higher?I guess I only see that as a problem if you had a habit of developing really bad house rules or something.I've houseruled my 3.5 game so much that I hesitate to even call it D&D at all.  I never thought it was difficult, or a nuisance, or anything.Apparently, neither did an awful lot of publishers who kept putting out alternate rules like crazy.I'm not interested in you proving me wrong or vice versa; I'm just curious if there's actually anything at all you can point at as an example of this.  Or if this is just an argument that you're emotionally invested in for some reason.See, for me, even for my subjective opinions I can at least describe how I arrived at them and why I have them.  For example, I strongly disagree with your assertions that house rules were difficult 3.5 because 1) I have an entire bookshelf full of, basically, house rules published by various sourced, both official and non, and 2) I've house ruled by game out the wazoo and found it absurdly simple to do so.I'm especially curious how we come to the paradox that you admit to having plenty of house rules in your own game while simultaneously calling it a nuisance to houserule and something that WotC has discouraged.The OP described a false pressure to adhere to some kind of imaginary balance.  It's a psychological pressure based Mouseferatu's perceptions about balance in the game.  There's nothing about the game itself that requires that.  And the idea that "Oh, back in the day before we had balance and our games were crappier, things were better!  Now that we've discovered balance, suddenly I have no confidence to play around with the game because the balance is so fragile that I have to step on eggshells" doesn't make a lot of sense to me, frankly.  If you don't particularly value balance, then why are you so worried about it?  If you do value balance, then of course wouldn't you rather have a more balanced baseline to start from?  If you think 3.5's balance was illusory anyway, then why do you care?Where did this false, psychological pressure to create ultimate balance with every single houserule come from?  Certainly, I've never felt it.  I don't believe anything inherent in the game itself caused it.  I was part of the same online community as everybody else during that age, and I didn't get it there either.So, yeah--I'm honestly mystified as to the souce of this "balance pressure."I'm not interested in winning any argument at all.  I don't even believe that we're arguing.  I'm just trying to drill down through your position and understand it, and move past the emotional assertions that don't actually demonstrate anything.  If you get that vibe, that's because you're overly defensive and emotionally invested in your position.I agree; they've all had big problems.  I've thrown up my hands with frustration with D&D more times than I can count.  Ironically, I think they may have many of the same problems that you think they have.My solution to that is to houserule it into the shape I want it.  I've found it an easy thing to do, and had great success with it over the course of several campaigns.  You're solution to it is to tell me that what I've done many times successfully and easily is impossible.It's not.  I can recognize a label as insulting and dismissive without being personally insulted by it.  Surely that's not a new idea to you?Especially since I'm not a comic book, nor even really a comic book fan; why would I be insulted by that particular insult?No, it doesn't.  Go read it again if it's confused.I admit that's the weakest part of my own post, where I start to tread into ascribing motive to you.  But something has to explain why you're making nonsensical assertions and getting really defensive about it when I call them nonsensical.  If it's not some kind of heavy emotional investment behind your opinions, then I'm at a loss as to what else it could be.See, here, you're no longer off the rails anymore... you can't even see the track at all you're so far away from the rails.  No, I have no ire, I don't particularly like comic books, you have no idea what kind of game I like if you think I want a superhero D&D game.And the notion that you're just a poor guy advocating gamer diversity and getting nothing from the current edition because it's just got it's One True Way™ is absurd.  And I've got the personal experience (mine and my friends) to back it up.  My 3.5 game is more like Call of Cthulhu than it is comic book superheroes, and has been for the better part of 8 years.  I don't play 4e, but I know plenty of people who have a low fantasy sword & sorcery vibe to their 4e games, and in fact will swear up and down that 4e is easier to bang into that mold than any other version of D&D ever.Yes, I do.  I didn't think this was a discussion about proselytizing, though.  Why does convincing each other of anything have to be a goal here?I don't have contempt for your point of view, but thanks for letting me know how you feel about mine.  That certainly explains a fair amount of your tone.  See, all this time, I thought this was a virtual example of sitting on the back porch with a beer after sunset talking about gaming with some buddies.  Here, you are so emotionally invested in your position, which you can't even bother to frame or explain in a way that makes any sense, that you're going on as if this is some bitter argument between two people who feel contempt for each other.  We are so fundamentally not on the same page at all here.You haven't really said much of anything yet.  You've basically made three assertions, all three of which are ... poorly supported, to put it as charitably as I can manage.  Let me rephrase them as I understand them: 1) If your game is already well balanced, then it's difficult to houserule.  Houseruling only flourishes in a poorly balanced environment.  2) 3.5 and 4e are comic book superheroes games, and you can't possibly play the game any other way.  I certainly wish that I could!  3) Like-minded people will flock to this statement and understand it.The ironic thing is that I'm probably one such like-minded person, with the exception that I've seen firsthand: 1) how easy it is to houserule, and how much houserules have flourished in official and unofficial publications, to say nothing of personal campaign websites and notes, and years and years of my own personal, successful campaigns which feature extensive houserules.  2) How easy it is to keep the game from become fantasy superheroes.  Heck, all you have to do is confine your gaming to certain levels.  Easiest houserule to implement I've ever heard of.</blockquote>

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