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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Doctor Proctor" data-source="post: 5679324" data-attributes="member: 78547">While I still don't entirely agree that such a rule is necessary, I think that your version is at least a bit more balanced. Although it reads a bit like a feat tax. Take the STR/WIS Fighter, for example. He can train in Endurance, but due to the split between STR and WIS, he won't have a very high CON to buff it. This means that, at best, if he takes training in Endurance he'll only be at a -2 in Scale (possibly only a -1 or a 0 if he has a 12 or 14 starting CON). So really, you're basically making characters like that save against losing a surge, sometimes with up to a -2 modifier (or worse). As a DM, there are other ways to encourage using CON or Endurance. Why not introduce some diseases into the campaign? Or play a Dark Sun game...then Endurance becomes really important!  Here you're confusing class and equipment. Every one of those powers can pretty much be done with a light armor character. Name any Fighter power, for example, and I can build a STR/DEX Fighter that can use it, while using light armor. Many of those powers are present on traditionally light armored classes as well. Shifting multiple squares? Hello Ranger, Rogue, Wizard (expeditious retreat!), etc... Teleporting? Well the Swordmage, who is a Defender, does a ton of that while wearing light armor thanks to his high INT. So does the Warlock, who also tends to wear light armor (although they can use chain, but will usually be at a lower AC than if they did a CHA/INT build in Hide).  As opposed to the Rogue or Ranger? Oh wait, they have DEX as a primary. Oh, well maybe the Wiz...oh wait, he uses INT. Well, maybe a melee Ranger then, they use STR as a primary, right? Oh, but then they use DEX as a big secondary for their riders...  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> Sarcasm aside, most of the classes that don't get heavy armor out of the box typically use INT or DEX as at least their big Secondary stat. When they don't, they often have a way to compensate, like Dragon Magic Sorcerers (they add STR to their AC when in light armor) and Earthstrength Wardens (they add CON to their AC when in light armor). Either that, or they can very easily qualify for Chain, since you can jump up to that from Leather provided you have the right stats (which, usually you will if you don't have DEX as either a primary or a secondary). Can you name a specific class for which this is a problem? Namely, one that does not use DEX or INT as a Primary or Secondary stat, and that also does not get proficiency in Chain?  That's not a baiting or sarcastic request, I just can't think of one off the top of my head, so perhaps if we had a more specific example then we could discuss this particular problem better.  If there are such classes, then yes, I would agree that they're getting the shaft.  Well, for one, you probably should have told your PC that she was going to have to stow those items before she attempted the climb so she wouldn't be surprised. Secondly, the Athletics skill doesn't actually say that you need both hands free in order to climb. Obviously you would need at least one, but since it never specifies both this might mean that your PC could've kept her shield on, and only needed to draw a weapon.  That's a more iffy issue though, and would apply to the twin blade Ranger as well as any number of light armor classes.  I can understand what you're going for, but I think adding in additional penalties doesn't really accomplish that goal very well. The Leather wearing guy with high CON and Endurance training (Earthstrength Warden springs to mind) will just about auto-pass your check, which means that there's no incentive to ever remove his armor. If you make the penalty worse, then it just makes it worse for everyone, while still being only a minor hinderance to the Warden (who, BTW, will probably have the highest HP and Surges of the party, and won't really mind losing one). I just think that there are better ways to encourage this sort of play, besides adding some 3e holdover that was eliminated for a reason. Either that, or just simply ignore it. Maybe the Fighter wants to wear his highly polished Black Dragonscale armor to meet the King? Perhaps to remind him of when they defeated the Black Dragon plaguing his lands? The RP opportunities cut both ways, and there's a long history of heavy armor being an important status symbol and prized possession of knights...something they would've wanted to show off, not lock up in a chest every time they were in town.</blockquote>

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