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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sonofapreacherman" data-source="post: 1306656" data-attributes="member: 2315">You may not have been talking about sunder, but it does illustrate my point. Enchantment bonuses do not make magical items untouchable anymore. As such, an enchantment bonus to armor does not make it immune to piercing weapons that halve their AC as damage reduction.Armor would only be cut in half by piercing weapons. That still leaves the vast majority of slashing an bludgeoning weapons that can 2 for 1 Power Attack. At epic levels, that is far more appealling than a 1/2 AC piercing weapon which cannot Power Attack at all.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />I think characters will always want damage reduction, especially against opponents that are easy to hit. Both heavily and lightly armored characters will be desirable, just in different situations.A few extra DR points? Those few extra points are pretty serious (as my example later on will illustrate). Not to mentioned the benefit of high priority Strength (without focusing on Dexterity) to squash all those lightly-armored types with little or no armor as damage reduction to protect them.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Moreover, and this might be a shocker, the variant combat system relegates Initiative to Wisdom, making it more about "instinct" and "perception" (two hallmarks of Wisdom) than physical quickness. A good initiative bonus becomes more about "getting the bigger picture" around you.I think some people will suffer from Dexterity withdrawal, until they realize how unimportant a Dexterity bonus is next to their base attack bonus. Even when Dexterity modifies all attack rolls, as it does in the variant combat system.The idea of *not* adding "extra damage" (which cannot be multiplied) to determine if AC as damage reduction is overcome in the first place, has grown on me overnight. My biggest concern, as always, remains how to "design" such a mechanic to work seamlessly in the variant combat system. It might all be in the phrasing ...Way too much complexity. The last thing the variant system should do is compartmentalize *stages* of damage. That just screams "no fun!". When combat starts, player's want to enjoy the fluidness of it. The variant combat system already adds one extra step. I am loathe to add any more.It is relatively easy to say that all "extra" damage (meaning, non-multipliable damage) is only added to the final damage if at least 1 point of multipliable damage is dealt beforehand. To add any more exceptions, like criticals, would bog it down. Criticals are not necessarily organ finders. They represent many combat factors, not the least of which is plain old *luck*.The 2 for 1 rules is balanced by the piercing weapon rule.Later on, there is a feat called Piercing Power Attack. It requires two hands and can only exchange 1 for 1.Ha ha! But you and I are rare creatures indeed! For the most part, people enjoy the simplicity of combat. I feel that tide is shifting now, but only a little bit, and it will never shift completely to high realism. To give characters the ability to parry is akin to empowering them with the ability to save their own necks. Player's like that. It's the only reason why I think it will fly. With parrying, however, comes a whole slew of related changes necessitated by the introduction of such a mechanic. In short, I don't want to push it, for fear the baby will be thrown out with the bathwater. Parrying is a good idea for d20 combat. Both parrying, and the accompanying variant combat system, need to remain simple.Okay, that said, you have convinced me that adding "extra" damage, like sneak attack damage and (to my way of thinking) extra magical damage, afterwards is a good balanced idea.All I can say is ... don't get hit. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />It will hurt your character to death, while you will only be doing bits and pieces of damage with your rapier against that +2 plate armor opponent. Sure, the rapier will cut the AC10 down to AC5, but your average weapon damage will be 3 (rapier) + 2 or 3 (assuming your Dexterity is a greater priority than your Strength) + 2 (magic rapier).Let's say you and your opponent are 10th level fighters. You will hit the heavily armored fighter virtually every time, but only do an average of 2 or 3 points of damage.Meanwhile, the heavily armored fighter will be two-handing a greatsword. Your EC with a kite shield (-6 penalty to all movement based skills) will be something like 10 + 4 (shield) + 5 (Dexterity) + 2 (miscellaneous EC magic) = EC 21. At 10th level, you both enjoy a base attack bonus of +10. That means the heavily armored fighter, with an equivalent magic weapon to your +2 magic rapier, will be hitting your EC a little more than half of the time, and one-third of the time on their second attack.Now look at the damage. The heavily armored greatsword wielder deals an average of 7 (greatsword) + 7 (+5 Strength bonus x 1.5 for two-handed usage) + 2 (magic greatsword) = 16 – 2 (leather armor) for an average of 14 points of damage. That's 7 to 4 times more average damage than you are dealing with a rapier.Once again, all I can say is don't miss your parry rolls. Fortunately, the odds favor you there. Your total parry roll will be 10 (base attack bonus) + 5 (Dexterity) + 2 (magic rapier) for a +17 bonus. The heavily armored fighter's parry roll will be 10 (base attack bonus) + 2 (magic greatsword) – 4 (two-handed weapon) for a +8 bonus. That's a whopping 45% advantage for you in the parry arena.But you can only parry once per round. So if the heavily armored opponent hits you more than once per round with a +12/+7 base attack spread, you have no option but to simply take the damage. That's a 60% hit chance on the first attack (hitting on a 9+) and a 35% hit chance on the second attack (hitting on a 14+).So far it's all sounding pretty even, although I think your lightly armored fighter is only delaying their inevitable defeat. The first special attack I would attempt would be to sunder their magical rapier (without using the Improved Sunder feat). And if you used your attack of opportunity against me for making an untrained sunder attack, then I would devote my second 35% attack (1 in 3) to attack you directly, without any fear that you could parry it away.I wouldn't underestimate heavily armored opponents in the variant combat system. They can take take damage and simply not care.</blockquote>

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