Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Armor as DR
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Orich Starkhart" data-source="post: 6453984" data-attributes="member: 6762059"><p>Sadrik -</p><p>I'm interested in systems that try to rework the abstraction that is Armor Class. I've also tended to think that D&D generally undervalues the utility of the shield. So I appreciate what you're trying to do, and especially that you propose increasing the effectiveness of shields (three points of defense rather than the two provided in the D&D 5 Basic Rules). </p><p></p><p>I do have a couple of observations/questions:</p><p>1) The provision to double the parry bonus when the character holds only the weapon means that the difference in defense between a character wielding both a sword and a shield and one equipped only with a sword is merely one point, which seems too low. What's your rationale for increasing the parry value of a thing when it's the only thing in a combatant's hands, and why is it *twice* as effective when it's held alone? Would +1 be enough?</p><p></p><p>2) Your proposed "parry" reduces hit probability between weapon-wielding characters in melee; certainly it seems appropriate to factor a melee weapon into defense, but I suspect that this is part of the previous "Armor Class" abstraction; what's missing is an adjustment to AC for different weapons, or an accounting for an unarmed opponent. In D&D 5, with proficiency starting at +2, any first - fourth level character has a 60% chance to hit an AC10/unarmored opponent for damage. I do think that if the opponent wields something that could be used to block or parry an incoming attack, that should contribute to their effective AC, compared to an unarmed defender, but I suspect the base AC10 already accounts for that sort of defense. Considering the ability score modifiers, perhaps 6 points of the base AC10 is due to ability to dodge: Dexterity 1 applies -6 to AC, so three of the other four (leaving natural 1 for a miss on the attacker's part) could be allocated to other factors such as needing to go around the defenders' weapon. So I assume AC10 accounts for an armed target, and that assumption leads to suggesting zero-based defense modifiers per weapon where most one handed weapons have "parry" 0 - and -2 AC for unarmed opponents of PC races untrained in martial arts (i.e, not monks). Two handers may get +1; light ones -1, and size ought to be considered as well: an Ogre's club might gain the ogre +1 (or more) "parry" due to being large size, a halfling size (small) broadsword, -1.</p><p></p><p>Polearms are good for engaging a foe at longer range than the foe's melee weapon; once they're within their attack range and the defender has to shorten their grip or something (if that's allowed) should the defender wielding a polearm still have a defensive advantage over a defender wielding single-handed weapons such as a broad sword or a mace? I doubt it, but I have to admit that I have no applicable direct experience.</p><p></p><p>3) the damage reduction you posted seemed (to me) unfavorable to heavier armors, but leads to rough parity for the high-dexterity martial character - meaning, a high dexterity character will take about the same average damage per attack when heavily armored as when lightly armored (and therefore able to dodge better, due to armor-related limits on dexterity modifier to AC and to modifiers to "parry" per armor type (light/medium/heavy)).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Orich Starkhart, post: 6453984, member: 6762059"] Sadrik - I'm interested in systems that try to rework the abstraction that is Armor Class. I've also tended to think that D&D generally undervalues the utility of the shield. So I appreciate what you're trying to do, and especially that you propose increasing the effectiveness of shields (three points of defense rather than the two provided in the D&D 5 Basic Rules). I do have a couple of observations/questions: 1) The provision to double the parry bonus when the character holds only the weapon means that the difference in defense between a character wielding both a sword and a shield and one equipped only with a sword is merely one point, which seems too low. What's your rationale for increasing the parry value of a thing when it's the only thing in a combatant's hands, and why is it *twice* as effective when it's held alone? Would +1 be enough? 2) Your proposed "parry" reduces hit probability between weapon-wielding characters in melee; certainly it seems appropriate to factor a melee weapon into defense, but I suspect that this is part of the previous "Armor Class" abstraction; what's missing is an adjustment to AC for different weapons, or an accounting for an unarmed opponent. In D&D 5, with proficiency starting at +2, any first - fourth level character has a 60% chance to hit an AC10/unarmored opponent for damage. I do think that if the opponent wields something that could be used to block or parry an incoming attack, that should contribute to their effective AC, compared to an unarmed defender, but I suspect the base AC10 already accounts for that sort of defense. Considering the ability score modifiers, perhaps 6 points of the base AC10 is due to ability to dodge: Dexterity 1 applies -6 to AC, so three of the other four (leaving natural 1 for a miss on the attacker's part) could be allocated to other factors such as needing to go around the defenders' weapon. So I assume AC10 accounts for an armed target, and that assumption leads to suggesting zero-based defense modifiers per weapon where most one handed weapons have "parry" 0 - and -2 AC for unarmed opponents of PC races untrained in martial arts (i.e, not monks). Two handers may get +1; light ones -1, and size ought to be considered as well: an Ogre's club might gain the ogre +1 (or more) "parry" due to being large size, a halfling size (small) broadsword, -1. Polearms are good for engaging a foe at longer range than the foe's melee weapon; once they're within their attack range and the defender has to shorten their grip or something (if that's allowed) should the defender wielding a polearm still have a defensive advantage over a defender wielding single-handed weapons such as a broad sword or a mace? I doubt it, but I have to admit that I have no applicable direct experience. 3) the damage reduction you posted seemed (to me) unfavorable to heavier armors, but leads to rough parity for the high-dexterity martial character - meaning, a high dexterity character will take about the same average damage per attack when heavily armored as when lightly armored (and therefore able to dodge better, due to armor-related limits on dexterity modifier to AC and to modifiers to "parry" per armor type (light/medium/heavy)). [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Armor as DR
Top