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Armor as DR
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<blockquote data-quote="Orich Starkhart" data-source="post: 6461454" data-attributes="member: 6762059"><p>A few responses to points made by DMMike and Sadrik:</p><p></p><p></p><p>I'll check out your game.</p><p></p><p> Agreed that "parrying" is a skill, but I think [MENTION=14506]Sadrik[/MENTION]'s "Parry" refers to defense in general rather than solely to parrying action.</p><p> I disagree that weapons do not contribute. Certainly it's harder to get a good hit on a person armed with a sword than one who is not armed, if they can block or parry with their sword or if that sword is a threat to the attacker. I suppose the effect of weapon might be insignificant, or at least smaller, in combination with a shield. Perhaps where Sadrik had +2 for a sword, +3 for sword alone, it should be +1 for sword, +2 if it's the only thing held, and shield at +3 or +4 makes for sword and shield parry at +4 or +5.</p><p> Yes, but if one is "swinging" a two hand weapon, one is not defending oneself with that weapon except for the possibly significant factor of intimidation. Keep the weapon between one and one's attacker, now it's defending one - while also threatening, if it's pointy, and such a threatening weapon's length might function to keep the opponent out of range to make an effective strike.</p><p></p><p> Maybe. Regardless, the one with reach already gets an Opportunity Attack when the one with initiative tries to move into melee range. </p><p></p><p> that depends how rules heavy ones wants to get. Why can't or shouldn't one assign a static defense value to different weapons depending on any of several factors, such as speed, reach, type (polearm, sword, hafted...) and an assumption of training?</p><p></p><p></p><p> Not sure what this was getting at in response to my observation that in my (flawed) understanding of Sadrik's proposal, it looked like a high dex character could do just as well against melee weapon attacks in light, medium and heavy armor. Is this comment about incrementing Parry penalty with Damage Reduction?</p><p></p><p></p><p>I suppose this can address the problem that sufficient Armor DR makes a character invulnerable to low damage weapon attacks, what about increased vulnerability to higher level high-damage attacks making DR seem pointless? [MENTION=6685730]DMMike[/MENTION], please elaborate on this point about the definition of hit points.</p><p></p><p></p><p> Agreed, and parrying could be added as a possible action/reaction, akin to the existing "Dodge", but I think [mention]Sadrik's[/mention] "Parry" is independent of action economy, thus could coexist with [MENTION=7989]Wrathamon[/MENTION]'s counter proposal to use an action or reaction to "parry or block". Such a parry or block attempted as a reaction may be much like a Shield spell - implemented specifically in response to a known-damaging blow.</p><p></p><p></p><p> Indeed.</p><p></p><p></p><p> Yes, but the defender waiting for an attacker to approach already gets an Opportunity Attack, interrupting their attacker's movement, when the attacker tries to come within the defender's range. Maybe the attacker can complete move and their attack only if they avoid a successful hit from the defender's reaction attack (perhaps necessitating a change/clarification of the rule that the interrupted character gets to continue their turn after the reaction is completed), or only after an additional save in response to that attack. This gives special effectiveness to the polearm and I think better models its value in defense than +1 to parry or AC over a melee weapon without reach.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Orich Starkhart, post: 6461454, member: 6762059"] A few responses to points made by DMMike and Sadrik: I'll check out your game. Agreed that "parrying" is a skill, but I think [MENTION=14506]Sadrik[/MENTION]'s "Parry" refers to defense in general rather than solely to parrying action. I disagree that weapons do not contribute. Certainly it's harder to get a good hit on a person armed with a sword than one who is not armed, if they can block or parry with their sword or if that sword is a threat to the attacker. I suppose the effect of weapon might be insignificant, or at least smaller, in combination with a shield. Perhaps where Sadrik had +2 for a sword, +3 for sword alone, it should be +1 for sword, +2 if it's the only thing held, and shield at +3 or +4 makes for sword and shield parry at +4 or +5. Yes, but if one is "swinging" a two hand weapon, one is not defending oneself with that weapon except for the possibly significant factor of intimidation. Keep the weapon between one and one's attacker, now it's defending one - while also threatening, if it's pointy, and such a threatening weapon's length might function to keep the opponent out of range to make an effective strike. Maybe. Regardless, the one with reach already gets an Opportunity Attack when the one with initiative tries to move into melee range. that depends how rules heavy ones wants to get. Why can't or shouldn't one assign a static defense value to different weapons depending on any of several factors, such as speed, reach, type (polearm, sword, hafted...) and an assumption of training? Not sure what this was getting at in response to my observation that in my (flawed) understanding of Sadrik's proposal, it looked like a high dex character could do just as well against melee weapon attacks in light, medium and heavy armor. Is this comment about incrementing Parry penalty with Damage Reduction? I suppose this can address the problem that sufficient Armor DR makes a character invulnerable to low damage weapon attacks, what about increased vulnerability to higher level high-damage attacks making DR seem pointless? [MENTION=6685730]DMMike[/MENTION], please elaborate on this point about the definition of hit points. Agreed, and parrying could be added as a possible action/reaction, akin to the existing "Dodge", but I think [mention]Sadrik's[/mention] "Parry" is independent of action economy, thus could coexist with [MENTION=7989]Wrathamon[/MENTION]'s counter proposal to use an action or reaction to "parry or block". Such a parry or block attempted as a reaction may be much like a Shield spell - implemented specifically in response to a known-damaging blow. Indeed. Yes, but the defender waiting for an attacker to approach already gets an Opportunity Attack, interrupting their attacker's movement, when the attacker tries to come within the defender's range. Maybe the attacker can complete move and their attack only if they avoid a successful hit from the defender's reaction attack (perhaps necessitating a change/clarification of the rule that the interrupted character gets to continue their turn after the reaction is completed), or only after an additional save in response to that attack. This gives special effectiveness to the polearm and I think better models its value in defense than +1 to parry or AC over a melee weapon without reach. [/QUOTE]
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