Armor DR Variant?

[The Levitator]

Hello everyone. I had to recreate my account since the crash (not ENWorld's fault, I couldn't remember my username/password). I haven't been a member here for a super long time, in fact just a couple of months.

I was wondering if anyone was using the ArmorDR and Natural ArmorDR variant? I just completed updating my DM Genie to incorporate and so far, the players LOVE it! I found it at Hypertext d20 SRD

My players really like the increased contact. One of them said it felt "grittier". I've also added the Attack and Defense Challenges from Iron Heroes as well as the stunts to try and make combat as strategic as possible. I was hoping to get some feedback from others using the ArmorDR/Natural ArmorDR and gain some more insight into its strengths and weaknesses.

 

[genshou]

Come on, people! Where's the love? This is usually a fairly lively topic every time it's brought up.

I'm a big fan of armour DR, but not usually with D&D's hit points. I think it works better with a system that has fewer bodily "hit points", like vitality/wounds (also from Unearthed Arcana just like the DR variants you love, though the Star Wars RPG version is better), Ken Hood's Grim-n-Gritty Revised, or those in a number of 3rd-party d20 rulesets. I also like it best with some kind of Defense/Armour Class bonus that increases with level.

One of the biggest problems with armour DR is of course monsters with very high natural armour ratings and a lot of hit points, such as the bigger dragon varieties. Their insanely high natural armour scores make a damaging hit nigh unto impossible, even with powerful magic weapons. The Power Attack feat is about the only way to get around this (and it's highly recommended you use it, considering their new Defense scores will be below 10 due to those horrible size penalties).

 

[The Levitator]

I had thought about giving the Vitality/Wound system a go, but I haven't figured out how to incorporate it into DM Genie. DM Genie has WWWWWAAAAAAAYYYYYY too many advantages to ditch it just to try a combat variant. I've already started working in Iron Heroes variants into DM Genie like the Attack/Defense Challenges and stunt system. I'm going to look further into the V/W system and see if I can work it into DM Genie.

Thanks for keeping me company here though genshou!!

 

[genshou]

I've never used DM Genie, but I think it should be able to adapt to a vitality/wounds mechanic, since all you really need to do is rename hit points and add a function for tracking a value equal to Con score + applicable feat bonuses.

As to the Iron Heroes stuff, I'm not very knowledgeable about it, but I think the challenges were either something I really liked, or really hated. No idea which, though. :\

 

[The Levitator]

Thanks for the simplification on the vitality/wound system genshou! That helps explain the premise of it a little better for me I'm going to play around with it, but doesn't it get a little complicated with criticals and special attacks? I'd love to actually sit in on a group using this system, especially to hear the DM's description of battle. The one thing I like about our current system is that DM Genie keeps a detailed log of every action in the game. So when the fighter attacks, it tells me his bonuses, the defender's bonuses, his attack and damage roll, and the defender's opposed roll (we use the opposed roll variant). This gives me a great deal of information so I know how much it missed by and was a whiff, or a dodge or the armor absorbing the shot.

I can tell a lot by comparing the 2 rolls together. The fighter rolls a 12 which would normally miss under regular rules, but the defender rolls a 2 for his opposed roll. I could describe it something like, "you react slowly to a sudden opening and manage a somewhat unspired thrust. But, your opponent tries to move and instead of dodging the halfhearted strike, he moves directly into it and you slice your blade into his body."

Woudl I be able to to use the same log descriptor with the W/V system with all of the same variables? Is it only the actual damage that changes in this type of system?

 

[genshou]

The basic premises are the same as far as attacks/damage go. If you're using vitality/wounds with D&D, though, there are a lot of changes that it's better to make. For example, you have to consider what to do about balancing weapons with higher critical multipliers.

One of the biggest issues with vitality/wounds is special attacks, which is a problem because taking vitality damage may or may not represent an actual "hit" to the character. Things like poison and a vampire's energy drain become difficult to adjucate. Do you have them only take effect on a critical hit, or have a certain die roll (or pair of opposed rolls) to determine whether or not vitality damage taken was through a "flesh wound"?

As far as describing the action goes, you can be a lot more cinematic. In a VP/WP play-by-post I ran in the near future of humanity, a giant alien centipede was attacking the party, and it rolled a natural 20 but failed to confirm the critical by a few points, thus dealing only vitality damage. I described the attack as the centipedge lunging straight at the PC's throat, and missing by such a narrow margin that its mandible made a small scratch on the side of his neck. The wound stung slightly from a tiny amount of poison getting in, but it wasn't enough to cause any ability damage. In other fights, bullets flew over the PCs' shoulders and vibro-axes were deflected just enough to avoid anything being rended. The vibro-knife fights could be easily described just like a knife fight in an action movie - a lot of scratches and close calls, and when someone does get stabbed it's major. There was no need to adjust my descriptions based on how many "hit points" the PCs had.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Ah, one of The Eternal Topics. Good to see it's alive again.

I think that those using DR in D&D are very brave, or very patient. But then, it could be that just I personally have an aversion to the very idea.

Places where I've seen good, or at least fair to middling DR implementations in d20 fantasy: Conan OGL and Iron Heroes. There might be other places, but I believe them to be few and far between.

I especially like Conan's take on the concept, with its AP values for weapons, class dodge and parry progressions etc.

 

[The Levitator]

A user by the name of Vanoj just submitted a script on the DM Genie website for a Vitality/Wound system. The best part is that it won't collide with my Opposed Roll script, so I can have both. I'm going to copy it into a new campaign and play around with it a bit. The IH Armor Dr seems to be a more variable version of the UA DR system. It doesn't seem to change things that much, except that there are more "hits" that don't really do any or very little damage. Like I stated before, my players like the grittiness of it.

I'm not averse to developing a system like Vitality/Wounds. I'm just the type of person who wants to learn as much as I can before I go changing the core mechanics of the game. We have already incorporated some other aspects of IH such as Attack/Defense Challenges and Stunts. The players love the extra options in combat, and they help me create even more descriptive combats. Every little bit helps!

 

[Sir Brennen]

The Waking Lands has a complete variant combat system which uses Armor as DR and some other major changes. It has some nice touches such as piercing weapons halve DR, but can't be used with Power Attack. It also has a Degrees of Success mechanic, which lets one ignore some of the DR by exceeding the targets armor by a specific amount (+10 or +20).

That said, if you prefer fewer changes to combat, I like Iron Heroes. One of its unique mechanics is variable DR - plate mail gives 1d8, for instance. Natural armor is still treated as regular AC, however (though there are suggested variants for this, too.)