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Message: <blockquote data-quote="jdavis" data-source="post: 925050" data-attributes="member: 8704">great googly moogly, this thread was long. I'll just list a few points here (I always miss the good threads).1. A cleric without his Platemail going up against undead is nerfed, or weak, or penalized)? That is the silliest thing I have ever heard, They are clerics not fighters, they are built to deal with undead, they are at a level they can turn the vampires. If we were talking about three fighters then I might give a little leeway here but we are talking about 2 clerics and a paladin (with a flying mount for pete's sake). The reliance on the plate armor in this situation is just silly, they have spells, and probably ranged weapons, they can make themselves imune to the negative level loss and the vampires are wizards not fighters to start with. If your cleric refuses to fight undead without his armor because they might punch him for some minor damage then that's just silly. It was stated that they had spells to compensate, it was stated they could of put on lesser armor, it was stated that they knew what was going on, and it was stated that they made a choice based on what all the players knew to not go and help (yes this is metagame knowledge). I think the thing that gets me the most is that they were CLERICS not fighters, they have spells, very potent spells, they are built for dealing with undead, it's one of the things they are good at, armor is inconsequential to this, they had spells to adjust for lack of armor that could of been cast quicker than it took to put the armor on. I'll leave the Paladin out because it was stated that his choice was based on letting somebody else do the fighting this time, so he is completly out of the equation, his enjoyment of the game was there as a player if not as a character. The whole armor arguement is out the window, I'm done with that and to argue that clerics are completly nerfed and useless without Plate Mail is just silly, the whole thing about them not going because they thoght they couldn't win without 80 lbs of armor is just silly, they are CLerics not fighters much of their game power is in their spells and their ability to turn undead (like Vampires).2. These players are apparently long term players in fusangite's campaign, to argue he should change anything is silly, they should be quite familiar with how he runs his game by now. Numion, mmu1 and Tsyr (and others) had very good points for their games and what they like but it isn't their game it's his game and it apparently has been for a very long time. The players should be used to him by now, they should be used to his rules and style, if they don't like his style they should of left a long time ago. If they thought they couldn't win the encouter without heavy armor then there is a problem with them trusting his encounters not with the description given or anything that I have read from him. (see they are CLERICS above). It was made obvious to them that they would miss the whole encounter if they sat there putting on armor, I believe it was stated that the one player in question here repetedly asked for the donning armor rules to be done away with over and over instead of doing something in the game, it was his choice and 100% his choice to sit there and don Plate Mail and miss the fight, he knew he wouldn't get there in time he knew exactly what he was up against (which by my reading was actually a pretty weak encounter for characters of this level, wizards without powerful spells and vampire spawns). The only thing more fusangite could of done was to directly say, "if you insist on putting on the armor you will not make it in time". He shouldn't have to say this because it's obvious, they shouldn't be worried about negative levels, they are the ones with the spells to take care of that problem, and they shouldn't be worried that the fight was a no win situation because they should of trusted that there long term DM would not do that to them. 3. People are putting their own personal slant and view on this, you can't start from your own game or your own experiences you have to start with the information given. Two character's didn't enjoy this situation (The Paladin is out he made his choice pased on the player wanting to see the others do some front line work not for fear of vampires or negative levels, he is a non-issue based on what was told), one has a history of being a pain in the butt and even whined in this situation for fusangite to change the rules to specifically aid his character, the other admitted he made a wrong decision after the game and they even decided next session they whould be better prepared for this. So what is the problem here? They didn't have fun? How do you know they never have fun in his game? How do you know that they didn't have fun that night, we only have information stating that one player had a hissy fit and stormed out and another admitted he made a bad decision. The game will never be fun 100% of the time for 100% of the people. There will be drop offs for everybody, don't bring your personal feelings or experiences in and overlay them on this because every game is different, these people are (most likely) having fun overall 2 guys had a off night that's all. It's fusangite's game, they should be there because they like how he runs or they should find another game, it seems that he goes out of his way to cater to what everybody likes as is.4. Yelling and storming out is inappropriate behavior for adults, I don't care if it's a formal diner or watching a football game, that's just childish behavior, if he had tried to talk to you about it like a adult that would be different, but having a fit like a child is not acceptable in any situation for any reason. I don't know the full story but it doesn't sound like there was a two way arguement here just a guy having a tantrum because the rules were not changed on the spot to let his cleric wear plate mail into battle instead of lesser armor and using buff spells.5. The whole Duke situation, my question was why did somebody need to go get him to start with? He should of been there before the characters got there, he was expecting a attack, he should of heard the same explosion they did and he was just as close if not closer. All this stuff about how long it took to get him is silly, he shouldn't of needed to be gotten in the first place, and even if he did need to be gotten he should of been preparing from the time of the explosion just like the party was. The fact was he had to be brought in because the others were obviously choosing not to come (in metagame the other players were even telling them to come on). You can nitpick all you like on how long it took to get the Duke,  but he is correct by the rules there for he can not be faulted for his actions in his own game. To attack him on this because he used the rules correctly and say he is wrong is just not right. He used the rules, it might not be the most realistic thing but he was in 100% rules compliance there for he is not wrong. Stating how you would of done it is fine but saying he is wrong because he used the rules as written is not. 6. Some people seem to be taking this personal and I don't understand that at all. How does it hurt you? Why are you getting in such a huff and attacking him? The venom in several of these post is most disturbing, and it really looks like some of the people on the against side are aruing just for the sake of argueing, I have seen several points carried on way past the point where he clarified them, such as the Paladin choosing not to go for meta reasons and not for fear of the undead, such that everybody was fine with what happened by the next session, one cleric admitted he should of went and agreed with the situation being right, the other guy has a long history (confermed by Teflon Billy on page 2 ) of causing the exact same type of problems previously. This is so cut and dried a case I just don't get it, they made a choice not to go, the armor was inconsequential because they are clerics prepared spellwise for vampires not fighters relying on mixing head on. They knew exactly what was going on and they should of know the encounter was nowhere near a death trap (the clerics had the least to worry about, they had the spells to protect themselves, they were more prepared without their armor than the characters that went to fight.) If it was fighters then I might give them the benifit of the doubt on the armor reliance but they are clerics with spells prepared and a Paladin with a flying mount, they were better suited for this encounter without the armor that the rogues that went to fight were, and were probably better off without their armor than the wizards/sorcerers too, fighting undead are their specialty and they were the ones with the spells to stop the negative level problems.</blockquote>

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