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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elvinis75" data-source="post: 931088" data-attributes="member: 4379">Time is passing in between 4 rounds and 40 rounds, too. What makes the dividing line hours instead of minutes (or days)? Time is passing in between 4 rounds and 40 rounds, too. What makes the dividing line hours instead of minutes (or days)? Well I guess with the helpers it was really 20 rounds but like I said it come down to acceptable losses or not.  Risk assessment and action.I think you misunderstad what I was saying. Fusangite was in no way predetermining the result of the encounter by trying to make the players fight without their armor. He was determining the conditions, but all DMs do that at all times anyway. If he was trying to make them fight without armor he should have seen that some of them might not and the others who didn’t have the limitation would act as there characters normally would. But you just said that the 4 players who went to fight should have been smacked down and sent home crying to mommy for coming without the other 3.If the players come up with a plan that would let them win, would you have done it? Or would you have stuck with the above? I think that the NPC villains where played out too stupid to be believable.  If the challenge rating as so low that half of the party could handle it with little help from the duke it was too easy.I'm still missing the 'saving them' part. The NPC came and helped in the battle, OK. Based on fusangite's testimony, he did for a whopping 3 combatants, so I'm not sure he saved them. Which three?  That is important.  Three spawn not much help.  Three of the higher vampires is a lot of help.So, your players never surprise you? Your players never have good luck or a brilliant plan to let them beat the odds? Really? I have a hard time believing that. My players are very crafty but EL there was weaken to a point of disbelief.  The vamps so stupid that monkeys with typewriters and little time could have planned better.quote:  If it's not arbitrary, then please share your criteria for making the decision.  All ready did.  One battle versus the war.quote:  Because searing light and turning undead are melee touch attacks, right?  I think that tactical discussion flies out the window with all of the higher level spells and the intellect of our vampires.  Turning is definitely close range and searing light is not.  The searing light would have been very affectivequote:  Well, one more time:If you predetermine the result of an encounter such that 4 PCs cannot win, and you change the encounter to do so, then you are giving the NPCs special treatment - you're cheating for them.Now, if that's not what you meant when you said things like "the 4 that decided to fight an encounter planned out for 7 players should have got their butts handed to them" or "4 players leave to fight a battle that they shouldn’t be able to win. They get routed and hurt in the process and return to the clerics to be healed and they launch a second wave. That how I would have handled it." then I apologize.But it sure sounded like it to me. I’m not predetermining anything but I’m not for totally playing highly intelligent vampires like idiots either.  I am assumeing that the DM wanted his climatic battle to be a challenge for all 7 characters and the what is normally challenging for 7 – 12th level characters is very hard to nearly impossible for 4.  I meant the second.  It makes more sense that they would fail considering.</blockquote>

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