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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Technik4" data-source="post: 2190130" data-attributes="member: 7211">This is exactly my point. Players who are willing to sacrifice for their 18 are sacrificing all the gravy, while retaining their power. Then, as a DM, I'm supposed to punish them for having low charisma and mechanically they have gimped themselves with their other low scores.My point with arrays is that if you don't let them have the 18, it doesn't really matter how many points you give them in their ancillary abilities. I guess some of this was in response to Henry stating he thought more points at character creation can in effect add +1 ECL to a character. I agreed at the time, but really, if people want the power they will sacrifice everything to get it (even on a low low point buy). I had a friend play a Psychic Warrior/Monk using that array - to pretty good effect. It's also a typical archtype among people you meet that the rules don't really support - the person that is approximately equal at everything they do. While that was made with 36 pt buy, for the wrong character, you would never see the power (A wizard, for instance).This reinforces that an array is weaker than point-buy. With point buy you can customize, alter abilities, trade points, etc. With an array all you can do is arrange. Imo, all of those characters are 'playable', the ones made up of more 'expensive' arrays merely have more out-of-combat things they can do (or more roles they can assume, or to be more precise, more potent roles).I think very few people reroll if all their scores are higher than 11. I also don't think the rules imply that a character without an 11 (or lower) is too powerful. 11 itself is considered average. You are claiming that every hero in d&d should begin with at least 1 below-average score (you aren't claiming so much as interpreting the rules, but thats a minor distinction)?That is, in essence, what I was arguing. The fact that the array I'm using in my upcoming campaign can be derived from a 36 point buy does not equate with me necessarily playing a Super 'High-Powered' Campaign because: 1) Due to 3 odd ability scores the array could also be made using a 32 point buy and 2) Arrays are inherently weaker than point buy as there is no customization. In the final analysis, I decided there would be no way for players to start with an 18, short of rolling it (4d6dl, reroll 1s, 6 times, arrange as you please). If you are unhappy with your rolls, you can still take the array, but the 16 becomes a 15 (greed = bad).What? First I was discussing the difference between an array based on point buy and point buy itself (obliquely pointing out that arrays are weaker), and secondly I was showing that the only difference between the majority of the arrays is that your weaker stats become weaker...thus limiting roleplaying potential (without diminishing your combat or 'mechanical' potential very much). How does that equate with giving 4 free feats and 22 point buy?I agree with you, but don't you think there are people who have 18s and don't necessarily have disadvantages (or below average ability scores)? Not every genius is anti-social and not every jock is stupid, that kind of stereotyping seems really backwards to me. I do think it can be fun to roleplay that kind of swing in ability scores, and I dont begrudge anyone doing that, but to say that is the only way to get an 18 seems harsh (this coming from the DM who is forcing his players to roll an 18, may sound ironic).I want heroes in my campaign to be heroes because of their courage, deeds, etc; I also want them to be able to build up non-combat stats, have some fun assigning skill points, and be more versatile than I feel lower 'point-buy derived arrays' allow for.TechnikPSI was in the military as a linguist and generally thought of my peers as slightly-above average, or towards the end of my enlistment, dead on average (so many jackasses). Upon getting out, I realize my peers were easily above the norm of society and I would consider the microcosm of ENWorld to generally be say, 25% more intelligent, wise, and/or charismatic than the average person on this planet (no offense to people who don't come to this site).</blockquote>

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