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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Belzamus" data-source="post: 5214203" data-attributes="member: 61612">It has to do with the whole cubic nature of the EL system. I never really understood it, myself. I've always just eye-balled CRs or done an ECL tally and then multiplied by .67.I don't how far it's been pushed back, but I had a thread a while ago where I updated all the Abominations from the ELH for Immortals play, and they're a lot closer in line to the nastiness I imagine threats of that level (50+) requiring. Though, even then, they could probably go a step farther.Also, do remember an increase of +2 EL for optimization is a huge jump in difficulty. You're talking what *should* be a TPK for an average party of your level. At least, that's how I reckon the EL system works, I could be wrong.And I do love most of the monsters in the Bestiary, I just think, on a whole, they would see a CR reduction of about 1/3 across the board if I was going to use them in a game. There may be some exceptions (a lot of the lower-level things, for instance, especially the sub-epics that just don't really work at that level of play.) But, for instance...the Kyriotates. It's like as not to die in the first round against an 84th level party. But against a 57th level party, you'd actually have a good fight on your hands, I think.I mean, yes, you can strategize and make the most efficient use of their abilities, but in the end, most things just can't keep up in the numbers game, which is what really ends up counting. Again with the Kyrio...2,300 hp, +26 Init and 65 AC os just asking to be one-rounded. The only thing it really has going for it is a DC 69 Will vs. Stunning aura. Sure, some, melee-types will fail that, but the more competently built one won't, I don't think. (Base 6 + 32 Epic +average 10 Divine) requires only a moderate Wisdom to give a decent shot at passing. (A cloak of resistance all but cinches the deal)Just an example though. Then again, IMO the Kyriotates is one of the weaker nasties in there, pound for pound. Void Dragons are on the other end of the spectrum. (LOL! Fly-By Strafing Breath, half your HD are gone for good, and I'm 3 miles away!)</blockquote>

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