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Message: <blockquote data-quote="RealAlHazred" data-source="post: 6749789" data-attributes="member: 25818">Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:Those abuses were largely due to combinations of spells running at the same time, metamagic'd up the yin-yang, or reliably cast from items. None of these are possible in 5e (due to only sorcerers having metamagic, due to the Concentration mechanic, and, in this writuep, because you can't make a wand of something that you haven't already seen. You have to rely on Spell Storing Item, which is far from a given success in this edition!). Spell combos are only as good as the spells that form them, and in 5e, the spells are nowhere near as combinable as they were in 3e (though there's a few that are problematic - and if you're trying to get a specific spell out, SSI is not your best bet, since you're a few levels and several spell levels behind casters and it's far from guaranteed that you'll succeed). Assuming my argument below regarding SSI's unreliabilty isn't convincing, I see two ways to address this. The first is to employ a preparation system - prepare 3/4 your artificer level + your Int mod schema, and those are the ones you can use with SSI. Since that's really limiting, this would be swappable with a short rest instead of a long one. The second is to add a hard level cap - the 3e SSI capped at 3rd level spells, for instance, but spells in 3e also scaled with level (which isn't true in 5e - here, like with 3.5 psionics, they scale with cost.). I'm leaning more towards the former, but honestly I don't think it's as big a problem, and adding a second level of spell choices and constraints A) makes the class play more complex, B) cuts into the artificer's creativity, and C) adds another constraint on top of the long setup time and the unreliability risk (and the book of schema, which I address next). All the same, I'll do more research into what's exploitable using spells as is. I did look around a bit, and so far there haven't been any serious optimization breakthroughs (there were such breakthroughs very early on in 3e and 3.5!), at least not that I could find. A deeper dig is a good idea though. That's only true for this artificer if you assume a spellbook is as easy to fill as the cleric lists are. It isn't. A 20th level artificer will have 23 schema, and at almost every level his strongest schema will be weaker than a sorcerer's strongest spells (since he's got delayed spell slot progression and can't learn a spell he lacks a slot for). A Wiz 19 / Artificer 1 could have 9th level schema, true, if he found and paid for them (and I should probably note that yes, he can copy wizard spells between his spellbook and his book of schema), but would have a devil of a time activating it (DC 28 Arcana check) and would lack the craft reserve for it (so it'd cost a slot like normal). This does lend a minor solution, though - if schema aren't derivable from written spells, they become much harder to aquire. What if, say, you couldn't learn them from wizard spellbooks or other nonmagical spell writing, but only from other artificers' schema or from spell scrolls (the former due to format and notation, the latter getting a pass because it's magical)? That gives the DM similar control over what's available to artificers (through treasure hoards and through controlling the market), and it freely adapts to Eberron (where common scrolls can probably be purchased). Unlimited daily casts with a pretty large failure rate if you're trying something big, and the big stuff comes online slower than it does for other classes defined by their magic (though admittedly faster than paladins and rangers). The spell slot cost allows you to go overboard if you want, or allows multiclass artificer/spellcasters to build SSIs of their higher-level spells and still use them (but in this case, you won't get any more SSIs than you would spells anyway, and the SSIs are risky and unreliable). The basic point holds, which is why I went with both reserve and slots at first, but I think it can be adjusted for this paradigm without too much work. Incidentally, I keep referring to SSI as unreliable. Here's what I mean. The highest Intelligence anyone can start with under point-buy is 16 (high elf, tiefling, half-elf, human) or 17 (gnomes), both of which have a +3. Let's assume that you shoot for 20 Intelligence ASAP after that. What's your Arcana check result at each level, and how likely are you to succeed on the SSI check for each level of spell you could create? I'll give you two tables - one without Expertise / Spell Storing Expertise (a magitechnician ability), and one with it. Recall that SSI triggers off of the slot, so if you're trying to rig up an antipersonnel incendiary bomb (Fireball in a 5th level slot), you'll need to hit DC 20 and spend 5 craft reserve (out of 17, when you first get that slot), and that unlike 3e, there's no way to consistently boost a skill check beyond its normal bounds (i.e. no +10 Use Magic Device items affordable around level 7 or so - the best 5e has is stuff like Bardic Inspiration).Show[sblock]Without Expertise: <table style='width: 100%'><tr><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td>1st DC:</td><td>2nd DC:</td><td>3rd DC:</td><td>4th DC:</td><td>5th DC:</td><td>6th DC:</td><td>7th DC:</td></tr><tr><td>Level</td><td>Prof</td><td>Arcana</td><td>12</td><td>14</td><td>16</td><td>18</td><td>20</td><td>22</td><td>24</td></tr><tr><td>1</td><td>2</td><td>5</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>5</td><td>70%</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>3</td><td>2</td><td>5</td><td>70%</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>4</td><td>2</td><td>6</td><td>75%</td><td>65%</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>5</td><td>3</td><td>7</td><td>80%</td><td>70%</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>6</td><td>3</td><td>7</td><td>80%</td><td>70%</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>7</td><td>3</td><td>7</td><td>80%</td><td>70%</td><td>60%</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>8</td><td>3</td><td>8</td><td>85%</td><td>75%</td><td>65%</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>9</td><td>4</td><td>9</td><td>90%</td><td>80%</td><td>70%</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>10</td><td>4</td><td>9</td><td>90%</td><td>80%</td><td>70%</td><td>60%</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>11</td><td>4</td><td>9</td><td>90%</td><td>80%</td><td>70%</td><td>60%</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>12</td><td>4</td><td>9</td><td>90%</td><td>80%</td><td>70%</td><td>60%</td><td>50%</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>13</td><td>5</td><td>10</td><td>95%</td><td>85%</td><td>75%</td><td>65%</td><td>55%</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>14</td><td>5</td><td>10</td><td>95%</td><td>85%</td><td>75%</td><td>65%</td><td>55%</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>15</td><td>5</td><td>10</td><td>95%</td><td>85%</td><td>75%</td><td>65%</td><td>55%</td><td>45%</td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>16</td><td>5</td><td>10</td><td>95%</td><td>85%</td><td>75%</td><td>65%</td><td>55%</td><td>45%</td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>17</td><td>6</td><td>11</td><td>100%</td><td>90%</td><td>80%</td><td>70%</td><td>60%</td><td>50%</td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>18</td><td>6</td><td>11</td><td>100%</td><td>90%</td><td>80%</td><td>70%</td><td>60%</td><td>50%</td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>19</td><td>6</td><td>11</td><td>100%</td><td>90%</td><td>80%</td><td>70%</td><td>60%</td><td>50%</td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>20</td><td>6</td><td>11</td><td>100%</td><td>90%</td><td>80%</td><td>70%</td><td>60%</td><td>50%</td><td>40%</td></tr></table> With Expertise (added in at level 3, when magitechnicians currently get it): <table style='width: 100%'><tr><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td>1st DC:</td><td>2nd DC:</td><td>3rd DC:</td><td>4th DC:</td><td>5th DC:</td><td>6th DC:</td><td>7th DC:</td></tr><tr><td>Level</td><td>Prof</td><td>Arcana</td><td>12</td><td>14</td><td>16</td><td>18</td><td>20</td><td>22</td><td>24</td></tr><tr><td>1</td><td>2</td><td>5</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>5</td><td>70%</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>3</td><td>2</td><td>7</td><td>80%</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>4</td><td>2</td><td>8</td><td>85%</td><td>75%</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>5</td><td>3</td><td>10</td><td>95%</td><td>85%</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>6</td><td>3</td><td>10</td><td>95%</td><td>85%</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>7</td><td>3</td><td>10</td><td>95%</td><td>85%</td><td>75%</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>8</td><td>3</td><td>11</td><td>100%</td><td>90%</td><td>80%</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>9</td><td>4</td><td>13</td><td>100%</td><td>100%</td><td>90%</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>10</td><td>4</td><td>13</td><td>100%</td><td>100%</td><td>90%</td><td>80%</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>11</td><td>4</td><td>13</td><td>100%</td><td>100%</td><td>90%</td><td>80%</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>12</td><td>4</td><td>13</td><td>100%</td><td>100%</td><td>90%</td><td>80%</td><td>70%</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>13</td><td>5</td><td>15</td><td>100%</td><td>100%</td><td>100%</td><td>90%</td><td>80%</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>14</td><td>5</td><td>15</td><td>100%</td><td>100%</td><td>100%</td><td>90%</td><td>80%</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>15</td><td>5</td><td>15</td><td>100%</td><td>100%</td><td>100%</td><td>90%</td><td>80%</td><td>70%</td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>16</td><td>5</td><td>15</td><td>100%</td><td>100%</td><td>100%</td><td>90%</td><td>80%</td><td>70%</td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>17</td><td>6</td><td>17</td><td>100%</td><td>100%</td><td>100%</td><td>100%</td><td>90%</td><td>80%</td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>18</td><td>6</td><td>17</td><td>100%</td><td>100%</td><td>100%</td><td>100%</td><td>90%</td><td>80%</td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>19</td><td>6</td><td>17</td><td>100%</td><td>100%</td><td>100%</td><td>100%</td><td>90%</td><td>80%</td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>20</td><td>6</td><td>17</td><td>100%</td><td>100%</td><td>100%</td><td>100%</td><td>90%</td><td>80%</td><td>70%</td></tr></table>[/sblock]You can immediately see that even with Expertise (something that I'm not completely sold on including, and can edit - perhaps Expertise only kicks in on SSIs of 3rd level or lower?), spells of "uncommon" levels (5th and higher - where slot recovery systems like Arcane Recovery and Pact Magic generally cap out), it's not a guarantee, and without it, it's a big gamble. Note that it still takes them two rounds to pull off the SSI, and even that costs them a Hit Die (especially significant at the lower levels and in parties without bards), and if it fails it doesn't just cost him the reserve or the spell slot (it actually blows up in his face by default, which can kill a low-level artificer and increases the demand for the healing a hit die can provide). And this is with the highest possible starting Intelligence under point-buy, and rushing to max it out at 8th (something that isn't always ideal if you're in a game with feats). You like to harken back to lessons learned from 3e. Consider the extreme aversion to arcane spell failure - even a 5% or 10% chance of failure was enough to get people in a tizzy and try to develop even lighter armor, which WotC responded to by dramatically increasing the amount of classes who have a type of armored mage ability. Consider that those percentages are still 95% or 90% likely to succeed. Now look at the chance of success on the table, and remember that spell slots, in 5e, are even more precious. (Craft reserve gives you a couple extra higher-level equivalents before SSI starts tapping into your actual slots, yes, but craft reserve also powers your augments and may be tied up in your scrolls or potions.) EDIT: I forgot to include Spell Storing Mastery at 14th, which is another ability I'm not wedded to (although I do think it needs some form of improvement to SSI at that level, the specific improvement doesn't have to be as written). I'll edit that in later. It's quite significant. Did you look at the level 9 ability? I also don't see them like soulmelds. I see the closest parallel being Sacred Weapon (which is a Channel Divinity option), except that ups the damage even further and is on a class with better weapons and Smites, or cantrips (which the artificer doesn't fight with), if you apply the SSI paradigm to them (i.e. you don't always have them available, but once you take the time to set it up by augmenting a weapon, you can fight like that as needed). Since it doesn't add damage until later, it's best used if the artificer has a significantly higher Intelligence than Dexterity (which won't necessarily be true at low levels) or if you're fighting a foe with an exploitable weakness (in which case, the artificer is magically building the perfect tool for the job on the spot, and exploiting a weakness is a way of fighting tactically - both of which appeal to me as fitting the "feel" of the artificer, i.e. Goal 2.) I might borrow the Ironsoul Forgemaster idea for the Combat Engineer (...actually, I might just call that the Spellforged, Smithblade, or something similar, to avoid the word "engineer"; not to mention "combat engineer" in English actually refers to the people who set up bridges and explosives on real-world battlefields), but that's because it's the path that really focuses on Augmentation as its primary thing. Just like I wouldn't move Evocation abilities from Evoker to the core Wizard. (You'll note the four subclasses correspond to four core aspects of the artificer: SSI, Augmentation, Imbue Potions / Scrolls, and construct-only effects.) ...On an unrelated note, I'm probably going to rename it from "specialist artifice" to "artificer guild", in a manner similar to Bardic College. Just to drive home the industry theme a bit more and separate the subclass names from "prestige class style" naming conventions. EDIT: Revisions made:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Schema are now no longer freely translatable with spellbooks. An artificer's schema cannot be copied into a wizard's spellbook, and a wizard's spellbook cannot supply an artificer's schema. You need other schema, spell scrolls, or an external source (i.e. recovered runes from ancient ruins or the like) to do that, which limits the ability to expand the book of schema beyond what you find through levelling up. This does limit what, say, a Wiz19/Art1 could put in his book of schema, to a point - the way Imbue Scrolls is written it won't work on wizard spells.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Weapon Augmentation has reminder text added to clarify what happens if you try to augment a weapon with two damage types.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Subclasses are now identified as Artificer Guilds, and the guilds have been named slightly differently.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Spellforger's Guild (formerly the combat engineer) has a slight tweak to how Sustained Infusion works to better facilitate team play. It already got enough "selfish" benefits on its own equipment through Augmentation.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I noticed that anyone can disarm magical traps, so I changed the mechanics a bit to make magitechnicians possibly slightly better at it. (It's normally an Int(Arcana) check against what is usually DC 10+Spell level; here, it's an Int (Thieves' Tools) check against 15+Spell Level, but since it's a tool check, they can Magecraft it. They also no longer automatically set it off if they fail.)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Magitechnicians now only get Expertise on SSIs of 3rd level or lower. (The 4th-7th columns above should look like the first table's.)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Clarified that Weapon Augmentation, when it's moved to an ally (haven't settled on the level for that yet), won't change their attack stat. That's a property only the artificer benefits from.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Fixed a potential glitch in Synchronize when it could, under one interpretation, be used to de-attune a cursed item without breaking the curse.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Added Heavy Crossbow proficiency, to encourage crossbow use (it's a thematically appropriate weapon for Medium artificers). It's not on the list of starting equipment though (that's still a light crossbow).</li> </ul></blockquote>

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