Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="RealAlHazred" data-source="post: 6749796" data-attributes="member: 25818">Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:My internal tests and <a href="http://keith-baker.com/extra-life-hacking-the-artificer/" target="_blank">Keith's playtest report</a> suggest otherwise. The risk is a huge part of that ability. (Incidentally, I'm already quite generous with it since it's on a short-rest recharge.) Let me be specific, then. If everything's on a short rest, then the artificer will have absolutely no reason to take a long rest unless his infusions run dry, and his infusions are not as central to the class as his other modifications (though they do carry several useful party enhancement effects - despite your assertion that this isn't a support character). You seem to want to have an artificer who, simply by being on the team, instantly gives the entire team permanent magic weapons and badass armor. That's in violation of Goal 1, which I opened with for a good reason. Furthermore, by setting it as a long-rest recovery with a slightly higher cost, you're forced to think about when to use it. It already lasts an entire hour (compare to Magic Weapon and Elemental Weapon, which are also on "long rest" recovery as they're spells, except Weapon Augmentation doesn't require Concentration), when most similar short-rest-recovery buff effects last only a minute (see Sacred Weapon, probably the closest to Weapon Augmentation in spirit, which is a channel divinity (short rest) option). If Augmentation moves to a short rest recovery, then it's definitely only lasting a minute. Also, the word "daily" has baggage from 4e, where it meant an ability that was usable once per day. An ability that can be used multiple times per day (or indeed in the same encounter), by definition, isn't "daily". It may use a depletable resource that's on a daily recharge, but that's not the same thing. The thing is, you aren't "storing it away for emergencies" (that's what scrolls are for). You're building the perfect tool on the spot. (Incidentally, these items? These are the non-DMG items you're talking about in your early replies. You're not casting Sleep, you're building a magical knockout gas system). Eberron Campaign Setting page 115, expressed in 5e form in Keith's much-linked blog post. The speed-up clause is the general rule at the top of page 31. (This is also how Weapon Augmentation worked at the time too - it also took a minute to use, so in-combat use required action points. I've been really generous with that instead. But I degress - back to a risky SSI.) It's always been a central part to the artificer - central enough that I decided to list it as a class feature instead of a spell (though with the tweaks to infusions, I could easily express it as one instead, using slots entirely instead of reserve - this would mean you basically only use reserve for permanent items, augments, and magecraft, which is less appealing to me, and it means that your SSI itself can be counterspelled as easily as the spell itself. If SSI proves more problematic, that's how I'll solve it - not by getting rid of its signature risk factor). Let's quote Keith, in fact.  My experience with artificers is similar - this single infusion turned the artificer from a buff machine into an outright mad magical scientist. It was a little too broad in 3.5, though, and it was easy as pie for an artificer to custom-build magic items to give insane bonuses to the skill needed to do this. I endeavored to fix those here. Opportunity costs also come in using the things too, not just in learning them. There's resources on that side too. Imagine a wizard with twice as many spells in his spellbook and spells prepared, but a 50% failure rate. He'd definitely be weaker! Now consider that the artificer has about half as many spells in the spellbook to begin with, can't use more than a handful between short rests, takes a full minute to use any of them (or a hit die, which is rather limited since only half of the ones you spend return on a long rest), and still might fail. His sole advantages here are that they can come from any list (but they still require the appropriate components and concentration, which prevents the worst offenders from earlier editions) and that he doesn't need to prepare them (they're like wizard spellbook rituals in this way, except they do cost a depletable resource). Considering which spells actually work with SSI (hint: the support/utility spells you use outside of combat), the delayed access to stronger spells, class features which emphasize support (especially now that augments are team-enabled by default), and the list of entirely support-driven infusions, I find your characterization the exact opposite of apt. What, exactly, would a "support" character look like, in your eyes?Infusions are also entirely support-based (unless you're fighting constructs). The reason SSIs can't be used by teammates is to prevent the artificer from building multiple laser cannons (Scorching Ray) and having the entire team unload them at once - he's the one who bult them, he's the one who understands them, they're unstable and won't last long enough for him to explain to you how they work, and it's not his fault you spent your time learning the deeper secrets of swordplay or theology instead of arcanoengineering.Right, and without the spell slot cost, having the artificer be the only one who can use them makes perfect sense for this exact reason. You seem to think "SSI" means "full spellcaster". I strongly suggest you actually try it before you make that conclusion. If you think I'm wrong, show me why I'm wrong - I'm moved by data. As for scrolls, it's interesting - the blanket rules for scrolls say anyone can use them, but spell scrolls in particular require you to be a spellcaster who has the spell on their list. (And I mention it during spellcrafting, but for purposes of making or using magic items, this artificer is considered a spellcaster with the spells in his book of schema as his list, so yes he can use his own scrolls.) At the moment there's only one kind of scroll that isn't a spell scroll - specifically, the Scroll of Protection, which is reasonably similar to the Magic Circle spell. So, yes, if you want him to build devices that his teammates can use, that's what scrolls are for. They also eat up craft reserve for their entire duration, take a little longer to make (but last forever), and so on. And if you want the entire team to start throwing spells, including those who can't use spell scrolls, look at the alchemists' guild spell flasks. (And, to a lesser extent, their bombs - the alchemists' guild deliberately doesn't say only the artificer can throw bombs. He's just faster at it, as he can do it as an action or a bonus action.) Considering how the 3.5 artificer's party enhancements fell into two categories - custom permanent magic items that did whatever you wanted and upgraded the team beyond what they could possibly have obtained through loot, and temporary enhancements through infusions (including Weapon Augmentation, Armor Augmentation, and Spell Storing Item, which were on spell slots ("daily" in your parlance) in the 3.5 artificer instead of the reserve system here). The first of these two will not work in 5e, and trying to implement them violates Goal 1. The second of these is still here, with a very similar infusion list, a generous (but not full!) slot progression, and much more frequent use of SSIs and removal of competition for slots on the augments through craft reserve. (And if you absolutely must have eternal augments up, look at the spellforgers' guild.)Revisions made:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Trying something new. I've switched it to a 2/3 caster (partly because I typoed the higher levels for 3/4). This really delays higher level spells, further shifting from the "full caster" description you've provided.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I gave the whole thing an editing pass, so it's lighter on the text, which gives a better impression of how much space it'll actually take up in a book (Goal 3).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Spell Storing Mastery now applies to 4th level SSIs as well; I misremembered the old SSI. The reason it doesn't go up to 5th (like Arcane Recovery, Natural Recovery, or Pact Magic) is twofold: you're already on short-rest recovery for SSI regardless of the level of the spell, and the new progression only just gives you 5ths at level 14 (so using your highest-level spells always carries a risk).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I'm considering your insistent suggestions on Augmentation. Which of the following is more appealing: A one-minute duration for the core class but a short-rest-recharge for the Spellforgers' Guild; a one-minute duration and a short-rest recharge on the core class and a reduced cost for the Spellforgers' Guild, or a one-minute duration on the core class and a one-hour duration for the Spellforgers' Guild (both on a long-rest recharge)? Personally, I prefer the first one.</li> </ul></blockquote>

Verification