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<blockquote data-quote="RealAlHazred" data-source="post: 6749845" data-attributes="member: 25818">Originally posted by rampant:OK I found the SPELL scroll item as a specific item and yes you're right. So wow yeah lot less impressed with the class now. Look I already explained how the spell book thing is still an issue, the fact that it happens once is broken, your example of extra spells equal to their character level over the course of the game? Yeah that's completely borked up! The fact that the artificer doesn't have a specific spell list for their schema makes it worse because at least the wizards can't do everything, yet. I want you to imagine two artificers in a party, assuming the DM isn't running them in a constant state of terror and poverty such that they spend every day fighting for survival with little more than the shirts on their backs, what reason would they have not to trade schema? Boom those artificers now know twice as many schema as a similar artificer in a party that got a paladin instead. 5e make sit harder than 3e I admit that, my complaint is that it still happens at all, because it is inherently unbalanced. Furthermore because the spell scrolls only work for artificers, casters, and thief-rogues of sufficient level to have use magic device, the artificer gains massive enabling powers or not, based on party composition.  So the power and influence of the artificer swings greatly based on whether he's got casters backing him up or not. That's not good for the same reason 'warlordesque' classes and subclasses that don't work well with casters (I'm looking at you every non-casting leader-type class from 3e) aren't good. Every class has to be able to function, and be balanced, in a party with any potential combination of other classes. </blockquote>

[QUOTE="RealAlHazred, post: 6749845, member: 25818"] [b]Originally posted by rampant:[/b] OK I found the SPELL scroll item as a specific item and yes you're right. So wow yeah lot less impressed with the class now. Look I already explained how the spell book thing is still an issue, the fact that it happens once is broken, your example of extra spells equal to their character level over the course of the game? Yeah that's completely borked up! The fact that the artificer doesn't have a specific spell list for their schema makes it worse because at least the wizards can't do everything, yet. I want you to imagine two artificers in a party, assuming the DM isn't running them in a constant state of terror and poverty such that they spend every day fighting for survival with little more than the shirts on their backs, what reason would they have not to trade schema? Boom those artificers now know twice as many schema as a similar artificer in a party that got a paladin instead. 5e make sit harder than 3e I admit that, my complaint is that it still happens at all, because it is inherently unbalanced. Furthermore because the spell scrolls only work for artificers, casters, and thief-rogues of sufficient level to have use magic device, the artificer gains massive enabling powers or not, based on party composition. So the power and influence of the artificer swings greatly based on whether he's got casters backing him up or not. That's not good for the same reason 'warlordesque' classes and subclasses that don't work well with casters (I'm looking at you every non-casting leader-type class from 3e) aren't good. Every class has to be able to function, and be balanced, in a party with any potential combination of other classes. [/QUOTE]

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