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Message: <blockquote data-quote="RealAlHazred" data-source="post: 6749848" data-attributes="member: 25818">Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:On the one hand, you keep seeming to expect the artificer to turn everyone else on your team into spellcasters - you've asked for prototypes to work for other characters, and you're disappointed that nonspellcasters can't make use of spell scrolls / arcane devices. On the other hand, you constantly raise the specter of the artificer having access to too many spells (and, as I said above, I will not consider further criticism on this point from you until you've played or run a 5e wizard - it's nowhere near as easy to expand the spellbook here). You do know that implementing the first of these suggestions makes the second a much larger issue, but ignoring the first (i.e. following the rules as they stand) also makes the second much less significant, right? If it ain't broke...This is, yes, potentially an issue. However, I think you're overlooking two critical points. First, the relible arcane devices (which are slow to build and replace, and unlike the 5e spellcasters are literally fire-and-forget, since you need to build two Sleep devices to cast Sleep twice) are entirely limited by your craft reserve. A level 9 artificer has at most 13 points of craft reserve, and may have far less if they didn't max out Int. He will have two 3rd level schemas by default; if there are two artificers in the party, he might have four. (This is four levels after the wizards picked up 3rd level spells, and the wizards have just picked up 5th level spells.) If he wants to build third-level arcane devices, he can hold at most four of them in a day, and that also ties up all of his craft reserve so he can't have any other arcane devices, any active potions, any uses of magecraft, or any of his subclass' abilities (three of the four subclasses increase the demand on craft reserve). Even with all of this, he's forced to pick which spells he creates when he builds the devices, and is unable to pick better ones from a list of prepared spells or somesuch when battle starts. Oh, and these devices don't use your Intelligence for DC or spell attack - they're locked to DC 15 / +7, which for a 9th level artificer would be equivalent to a 16 Int no matter how high yours is. (This is deliberate, actually - part of the cost of reliability is that you don't supercharge your abilities.) Second, if he wants to exceed this amount, or have a wider set of versatility, or to use his Intelligence directly in combat with a schema, he can use his spell slots on them - through Prototype, which you take every opportunity to insult as useless and unreliable. These are also not usable in combat (except for the Magitechnicians, who have to spend a Hit Die to use them - and on multi-day adventures, those start falling pretty fast since you don't recover all spent hit dice on a long rest), have a timed shelf life, and (for the strong ones) there's a pretty high chance of failure. In this case, a 9th level artificer has at best +9 Arcana, and a 3rd level prototype (of which he can create two, before he runs out of spell slots) needs a DC 16 check to trigger - that's a 30% failure rate. In 3.5 terms, this is like trying to cast spells while wearing chainmail, except here it takes a minute to set up (or two rounds and a Hit Die for Magitechnicians). And all of this for a maximum of 4 3rd level spells across two artificers, each of whom (if they focus on absolutely nothing but this) can deliver at most six such effects (four weaker than normal, and two with a rather high risk of failure, and all of whom require additional set up time and aren't chosen on the fly); if two wizards worked together to do the same they'd have access to up to twenty such spells, and could deliver seven such effects each (and they'd be stronger, since more than half of those are upcast in higher-level slots, all of them are cast with perfect reliability, and all of them use the wizard's full Intelligence score; furthermore, they're picked appropriately on the fly from a list, and it's easy to have fourteen of those 20 spells prepared. None of this even considers what the spells are - artificers have no specific proficiency with any particular form of schema (except, perhaps, rituals, and tomelocks have already shown that's nowhere near as bad as people think), while wizards have ways of making one specific school completely badass). If anything, this is telling me that I should increase the reserve cost for arcane devices (something that my tests have suggested as well - it's not a serious problem but it is exploitable) rather than decrease the versatility. Right, and the power and influence of a short-range radius paladin aura is stronger the more people fight in melee with him instead of hanging back while he tanks, and the power and influence of a rogue's sneak attack improves if he's got a meleeist on the team instead of a team of archers, and the rogue's ambushing ability (exemplified on the assassin) becomes much less useful if anyone on the team isn't also a stealth expert, and the power and influence of a fighter's Protection combat style or Rally maneuver increase the more people he has to protect from hit point damage, and the power and influence of a wizard increases the more other wizards he's fighting alongside, and.... And the artificer's weapon-enhancing buffs increase in utility when there's more people who fight with weapons (especially once he starts upcasting or sustaining them) and decrease in utility when there's more people who fight with cantrips. And his arcane devices increase in utility if he's got more spellcasters (of the right sort - a wizard can't use a device of Entangle, but a druid can) on the team, but decrease in utility if there's more fighters (but, again, this isn't always true, as the alchemist does exactly what you want at the high levels). Also, if you think none of the 3e leader-type noncasters didn't play well with noncasters, you never read White Raven Tactics nor the Determined Caster aura nor anything that worked off of debuffs (I'm currently playing a character who's basically a walking kill zone for our spellcasters, for instance). EDIT: Revisions made:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Heavy Crossbow removed; spellforgers can still get it, and everyone else can still use the light crossbow.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Arcana training is now optional.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Starting equipment now clearly provides a book of schema.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The overall progression has been adjusted. The old ability timing was set back when it was a 3/4 caster, not a 2/3 caster; the adjusted timing evens out dead levels. The closest to "dead" (in terms of not getting new spells, new spell levels, or new abilities) are 13 (which coincides with a proficiency bonus increase) and 18 (I added a new spell known at this level to cover for that).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Arcane Devices now decay if you don't maintain them for 24 hours (this is automatic just by keeping them with you, and I'm leaving the description up to the player). This puts them in the same category as every other item you create through craft reserve(temporary), and it further reinforces why they're not sold. Also, I broadened it to function off of any artisan tools, not just tinker tools (it makes sense that a mason artificer would etch runes into tablets and an alchemist would brew some chemical reaction instead of constructing a Rube Goldberg machine), but the name "Arcane Device" still harkens to the tinker tools.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Potions of Resistance now clearly let you set which type of resistance you're granting - provided it's one of the ones from your weapon augmentation spell (acid, cold, fire, lightning, thunder; after 15th that expands to include necrotic, radiant, poison, and psychic). Note that they give a chosen resistance to anyone, using *their* action, for 1 hour without relying on concentration, three levels earlier than you can do the same with Armor Augmentation, and these potions are the only way to get resistance to Force (though you have to gamble to make Force resistance potions).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Spellforgers' Guild: Sustained Infusion is replaced with Augmented Infusion, which gives +1 spell level to the three gear-enhancement spells. These spells still require concentration (the only spells that don't now are the augmentations from high-level artificers).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Golemists' Guild: Construct Dominance now has a different effect. While technically I see a few different checks and balances connected to this ability, a look at the constructs in the game already makes any of the reasonable ones purely symbolic (i.e. it's a level 17 ability, and Iron Golems are CR 16), so I omitted them. This might change as constructs are added to the game. (It's modelled off of the high level Necromancer ability, for reference.)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I changed Reconstruction (raise dead) to retain the standard ordeal, but removed its time limit. It's Construct-only (and they lack a soul), so there's no reason to wait for Resurrection to be able to re-activate ancient relics if you can find them.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Weapon and Armor Augmentation now no longer require somatic components. Well, technically, they do, but it's whatever manipulation you need to get the material components going, and removing the S component allows you to augment your own weapons and armor once your hands are full (which really matters for spellforgers and any artificer using a shield).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Jumpstart now clearly can't be used to keep prototypes working. (If that were allowed, you'd basically be casting 6th level spells out of 3rd level slots.) The wording was ambiguous earlier.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Power Surge's overload explosion damage is now on par with a basic Fireball.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Added object interactions on Repair Damage, Inflict Damage, Energy Ward, and Stone Construct. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I added two 7th level spells (Mordenkainen's Sword and Symbol, similar to Animate Objects and Glyph of Warding), since it was kind of bugging me that they got up to 7th level slots but had no spells for them. (I liked how this allowed upcasting, but no other class has slots but no spells. Even the warlock gets spells for levels he lacks slots (for use with Mystic Arcanum and, presumably, spell scrolls)). I also added Blade Ward as a cantrip, as I've changed my "no combat cantrip" philosophy into "no offensive cantrips" instead.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">General grammar editing throughout. It's still five pages printed.</li> </ul>Also, a reminder about arcane device strength: It functions as a Spell Scroll, which doesn't use your own Intelligence. Instead, it works out to the same DC / Spell Attack as a spell cast by the lowest-level wizard capable of doing it, with 16 Intelligence who puts +2 Int in at 4th and 8th level, except this never continues to scale (i.e. the stats for a 3rd level scroll will always match those of a 5th level wizard with an Intelligence of 18, even if you're higher level). The arcane device DCs and spell attacks, taken from the basic rules, are as follows (with a column added for a comparable wizard's Int to get this result; the effective proficiency bonus scaling is clearly based on the full-caster's rate of spell slot progression):[table="width: 500"][tr]    [td]Lvl[/td]    [td]Rar[/td]    [td]DC[/td]    [td]Atk[/td]    [td]Wiz Lvl/Int[/td][/tr][tr]    [td]Cantrip[/td]    [td]C[/td]    [td]13[/td]    [td]+5[/td]    [td]1  / 16[/td][/tr][tr]    [td]1[/td]    [td]C[/td]    [td]13[/td]    [td]+5[/td]    [td]1  / 16[/td][/tr][tr]    [td]2[/td]    [td]U[/td]    [td]13[/td]    [td]+5[/td]    [td]3  / 16[/td][/tr][tr]    [td]3[/td]    [td]U[/td]    [td]15[/td]    [td]+7[/td]    [td]5  / 18[/td][/tr][tr]    [td]4[/td]    [td]R[/td]    [td]15[/td]    [td]+7[/td]    [td]7  / 18[/td][/tr][tr]    [td]5[/td]    [td]R[/td]    [td]17[/td]    [td]+9[/td]    [td]9  / 20[/td][/tr][tr]    [td]6[/td]    [td]V[/td]    [td]17[/td]    [td]+9[/td]    [td]11 / 20[/td][/tr][tr]    [td]7[/td]    [td]V[/td]    [td]18[/td]    [td]+10[/td]    [td]13 / 20[/td][/tr][tr]    [td]8[/td]    [td]V[/td]    [td]18[/td]    [td]+10[/td]    [td]15 / 20[/td][/tr][tr]    [td]9[/td]    [td]L[/td]    [td]19[/td]    [td]+11[/td]    [td]17 / 20[/td][/tr][/table]Cantrip and 8th-9th level scrolls included just for curiosity. Cantrips can't be entered into the book of schema, and 8ths and 9ths are only open to wizard/artificer multiclasses who won't have enough craft reserve to create arcane devices of them. (They can build prototypes, but this'll cost them the spell slot and might fail, unlike just casting an 8th or 9th-level spell normally.) This means it's actually quite doable to make an artificer who doesn't have a high Intelligence, by focusing on arcane devices and augmentation instead of Arcana / Prototype. They'll just choose to use their natural ability scores under Personal Weapon Augmentation. A high Intelligence is still desirable for artificers who focus on Prototype or DC/Attack-driven spells, and throwing your own bombs is a ranged spell attack and not a ranged weapon attack, so Int is still favored exclusively by three-quarters of the path choices (and it's still viable for the spellforgers). </blockquote>

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