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Message: <blockquote data-quote="RealAlHazred" data-source="post: 6749886" data-attributes="member: 25818">Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:These complaints really sound like they're entirely coming from a 3e mindset. In 5e, you really can't find the scrolls you're looking for. There is no scroll economy in 5e, and they're hard to come by. Wizards and clerics in 5e also have another limiting factor - their prepared spell list (equal to their class level + their spellcasting mod in total spells). The artificer has something similar, but it's even harder to work with most of the time - namely, it's his craft reserve. Unlike the wizard and cleric, he spends one reserve per spell level (and after he uses a spell in the form of an arcane device, he can't use it again - he has to "prepare" multiple copies of the spells he wants to use multiple times), and has other things calling for its use beyond arcane devices. In exchange, he can fill one spell over the course of a long rest, or he can gamble it by using a spell slot for a Prototype in a shorter span of time. In Eberron, there presumably will be, but there, it's limited to the lower-level scrolls. I'm still not sure how that will turn out, so consider this a trial run in lieu of knowing exactly how Eberron will work in the future. Right, and that's weapon augmentation, armor augmentation, and infuse potion, plus the other related magical gear buffs in the spell list (and the bombs and spell flasks open to alchemists - alchemists were expressly designed to be able to pass out the fruits of their labor if your party wanted to use them that way). If you want them to actually use magic, then congratulations, you want them to become de-facto spellcasters, and my counterpoint from before still holds.The only way around this is to say that only the artificer can use his arcane devices. I'm not opposed to this, but you were vehemently opposed to something similar on spell storing item upthread (which contradicts your desire to add magic to the other classes). I'd rather keep the differences between scrolls and devices to a minimum for now - it really hasn't been that much of a problem in playtesting. (A team with an artificer and a wizard on it in 5e means that the artificer has to concentrate on wizard spells if he wants the wizard to make use of his devices - and every wizard schema the artificer picks up is a cleric or druid or bard or warlock or paladin or ranger spell he doesn't. Remember, again, that scrolls aren't simply available from a catalog at your local magic mart in 5e.) That was my gut reaction to the tomelock, which is similarly versatile and capable of learning from any spell list on the cheap, limited to rituals only. Despite having access to Find Familiar and other rituals, it hasn't broken anything. That's not to say it can't, but I'm not worried about it for now. Um, you do realize that the artificer's always had access to this sort of thing? He's not actually casting Entangle by praying to the Old Gods and the Circle of Being, he's figuring out the principles by which those prayers cause the land to respond that way, and replicating that. Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science, and all that. (TECHNICALLY the artificer isn't actually casting spells at all - it's all this kind of macgyering and binding magic into metal. But 5e is pretty uniform in how magic works (there's no arcane/divine distinction, for instance, and psionics are handled through spellcasting with a special tag), so I figured for parsimony it should all just use the same rules here, too.) Really? I've met only two that did either of those. If you'd look through my sig, you'd see that I'm immensely fond of the book, and consider it quite probably the best book written for 3.5. However, it wasn't just the martial adepts - I mentioned a marshal aura back there (yes I know that the marshal sucks, but that aura has seen use in more than one caster party because it does its job so well - it was even included in the original Mailman blaster build despite it being a noncaster level for that reason!), and the character I'm playing that works as a kill zone is a hexblade (and calling them a caster is more than a bit of a stretch), which happens to have a lot of caster-friendly debuffs in its repertoire.) EDIT: Revisions made: <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Magitechnicians' Guild: Prototype Expertise is now Prototype Mastery, giving advantage instead of double proficiency. This reduces the odds of failure without increasing the maximum result, which favors lower-level prototypes. High-level prototypes are still a gamble, but less of a gamble than for non-magitechnicians. (This also causes Flash of Genius to show up more frequently.)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Spellforgers' Guild: No longer gives heavy armor proficiency, to avoid treading on paladin/fighter toes, particularly when multiclassing from a class without heavy armor into artificer. The cleric can get heavy armor, but not both heavy armor and Extra Attack (War Priest is close but limited); the other caster-turned-fighters (Valor bard, bladelock) have light armor only.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Alchemists' Guild: Renamed Fast Hands, as I forgot the thief ability had the same name but a different effect.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Synchronize has two words added to it which now allows you to actually use items that you normally couldn't (similar to the thief's use magic device, except it's costly, requires setup time, short-lived, and takes concentration, but it's available sooner because you do specialize in magic items, after all) while under its effect. In this way it's actually closer to its original form, Suppress Requirement. (And yes, you can attune to items that don't require attunement normally, so there's no snag in using Synchronize on, say, a spell scroll that has a spell you don't have a schema for.)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Minor edits throughout; apart from a few minor tweaks this is actually looking pretty done, unless tesing reveals a bigger problem as I go. (I haven't done the numbers on resistance/vulnerability by CR to the damage types included in Expanded Augmentation yet, for instance.)</li> </ul>For Prototype Mastery (which will probably be renamed to a more invention-themed form soon), here's the original Prototype success rates and the success rates with Prototype Mastery (from levels 11+), assuming a starting Intelligence of 15 with +2 Int at 4th and 8th (and +1 at 12th). Prototype success rates[sblock]Standard artificer (if a success rate is too risky for you, then that's a way of saying "use an arcane device instead except under time pressure"): <table style='width: 100%'><tr><td>Level</td><td>Prof</td><td>Int Mod</td><td>Arcana</td><td>1st</td><td>2nd</td><td>3rd</td><td>4th</td><td>5th</td><td>6th</td><td>7th</td></tr><tr><td>1</td><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>4 </td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>4 </td><td>65%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>3</td><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>4 </td><td>65%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>4</td><td>2</td><td>3</td><td>5 </td><td>70%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>5</td><td>3</td><td>3</td><td>6 </td><td>75%</td><td>65%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>6</td><td>3</td><td>3</td><td>6 </td><td>75%</td><td>65%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>7</td><td>3</td><td>3</td><td>6 </td><td>75%</td><td>65%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>8</td><td>3</td><td>4</td><td>7 </td><td>80%</td><td>70%</td><td>60%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>9</td><td>4</td><td>4</td><td>8 </td><td>85%</td><td>75%</td><td>65%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>10</td><td>4</td><td>4</td><td>8 </td><td>85%</td><td>75%</td><td>65%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>11</td><td>4</td><td>4</td><td>8 </td><td>85%</td><td>75%</td><td>65%</td><td>55%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>12</td><td>4</td><td>5</td><td>9 </td><td>90%</td><td>80%</td><td>70%</td><td>60%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>13</td><td>5</td><td>5</td><td>10 </td><td>95%</td><td>85%</td><td>75%</td><td>65%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>14</td><td>5</td><td>5</td><td>10 </td><td>95%</td><td>85%</td><td>75%</td><td>65%</td><td>55%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>15</td><td>5</td><td>5</td><td>10 </td><td>95%</td><td>85%</td><td>75%</td><td>65%</td><td>55%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>16</td><td>5</td><td>5</td><td>10 </td><td>95%</td><td>85%</td><td>75%</td><td>65%</td><td>55%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>17</td><td>6</td><td>5</td><td>11 </td><td>100%</td><td>90%</td><td>80%</td><td>70%</td><td>60%</td><td>50%</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>18</td><td>6</td><td>5</td><td>11 </td><td>100%</td><td>90%</td><td>80%</td><td>70%</td><td>60%</td><td>50%</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>19</td><td>6</td><td>5</td><td>11 </td><td>100%</td><td>90%</td><td>80%</td><td>70%</td><td>60%</td><td>50%</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>20</td><td>6</td><td>5</td><td>11 </td><td>100%</td><td>90%</td><td>80%</td><td>70%</td><td>60%</td><td>50%</td><td>40%</td></tr></table> Magitechnician's Guild (reminder: These guys get the ability to cast Prototype from craft reserve at 3rd, the ability to speed it up to 1 action casting by spending a Hit Die at 5th, advantage on the roll to trigger prototypes at 11th, and Flash of Genius (a bonus charge on the item if a natural 20 happens on a successful activation; since these tables have max Intelligence by that point, a natural 20 will always be a success, meaning Flash of Genius occurs 9.75% of the time assuming no disadvantage is present, and 5% of the time when disadvantage is present): <table style='width: 100%'><tr><td>Level</td><td>Prof</td><td>Int Mod</td><td>Arcana</td><td>1st</td><td>2nd</td><td>3rd</td><td>4th</td><td>5th</td><td>6th</td><td>7th</td></tr><tr><td>1</td><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>4 </td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>4 </td><td>65%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>3</td><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>4 </td><td>65%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>4</td><td>2</td><td>3</td><td>5 </td><td>70%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>5</td><td>3</td><td>3</td><td>6 </td><td>75%</td><td>65%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>6</td><td>3</td><td>3</td><td>6 </td><td>75%</td><td>65%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>7</td><td>3</td><td>3</td><td>6 </td><td>75%</td><td>65%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>8</td><td>3</td><td>4</td><td>7 </td><td>80%</td><td>70%</td><td>60%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>9</td><td>4</td><td>4</td><td>8 </td><td>85%</td><td>75%</td><td>65%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>10</td><td>4</td><td>4</td><td>8 </td><td>85%</td><td>75%</td><td>65%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>11</td><td>4</td><td>4</td><td>8 </td><td>98%</td><td>94%</td><td>88%</td><td>80%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>12</td><td>4</td><td>5</td><td>9 </td><td>99%</td><td>96%</td><td>91%</td><td>84%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>13</td><td>5</td><td>5</td><td>10 </td><td>100%</td><td>98%</td><td>94%</td><td>88%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>14</td><td>5</td><td>5</td><td>10 </td><td>100%</td><td>98%</td><td>94%</td><td>88%</td><td>80%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>15</td><td>5</td><td>5</td><td>10 </td><td>100%</td><td>98%</td><td>94%</td><td>88%</td><td>80%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>16</td><td>5</td><td>5</td><td>10 </td><td>100%</td><td>98%</td><td>94%</td><td>88%</td><td>80%</td><td>--</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>17</td><td>6</td><td>5</td><td>11 </td><td>100%</td><td>99%</td><td>96%</td><td>91%</td><td>84%</td><td>75%</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>18</td><td>6</td><td>5</td><td>11 </td><td>100%</td><td>99%</td><td>96%</td><td>91%</td><td>84%</td><td>75%</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>19</td><td>6</td><td>5</td><td>11 </td><td>100%</td><td>99%</td><td>96%</td><td>91%</td><td>84%</td><td>75%</td><td>--</td></tr><tr><td>20</td><td>6</td><td>5</td><td>11 </td><td>100%</td><td>99%</td><td>96%</td><td>91%</td><td>84%</td><td>75%</td><td>64%</td></tr></table> All of these are rounded to the nearest hundredth, then expressed as a percentage (the actual number for an 11th level magitechnician's 1st level prototype is 97.75%, for instance).[/sblock] </blockquote>

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