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Message: <blockquote data-quote="RealAlHazred" data-source="post: 6749901" data-attributes="member: 25818">Originally posted by rampant:I know that scrolls aren't freely purchasable I've mentioned that several times I'm sure, the problem is if you ever find/buy 1 you've broken the balance. By allowing the artificer to 'scale to the expectations of the game world' or whatever you call it you'vre created a class whose versatility and power come from the DM. The artificer isn't adjusting to a new scenario he's just flat broken in certain ones, and less so in others (because I still think that being allowed to cherry pick any spell of the level sthey can reach is nuts in and of itself). Allowing artificers to learn from schema is not designing within the constraints of 5e, it's reapeatign a mistake that they made with wizards, but on a whole other level because they don't even have the constraints of a spell list. Forcing them to pay opportunity costs to learn spells/powers is certainly not outside the constraints. It doens't matter if it happens less often then in 3e, that it happens at all is wrong, especially without some sort of upper limit to enforce opportunity costs. Either they have a balanced number of powers/spells known and adding more is broken, or they don't and you need to up the number grante dby the class, not leave it ot the DM to decide whether or not the artificer gets to suck or soar. Also where does it say 5e assumes that you can't buy magic items because All i see isthat they leave it up to the DM whether a magic item can be bought/made/found, I don't know if you can really take their unavailiablity as being baseline anymore than we could take availiability as a baseline. The class should be desinged so that it remains balanced in both cases. Yes power is a spectrum, but classes need to be in a fairly narrow band of that spectrum. Weapon augmentation is the one that gets all the class feature buffs, looking over your spell list I'm not really seeing a ton of love for the wepaon users, elemental weapon is nice but faces the same basic limits as weapon augment, i.e. elemental damage, and little else. MAgic weapon is again all right but even in conjunction it doesn't seem on the level of scpell scrolls, and remember both of those are concentration spells. Frankly trying to rely on magic to make things better for non-magic weapon users almost never ends well. The classes that have the spells wepaon users actually want tend to be selfish self-buffing gish classes. As to your scroll nova, still no. A party Comprised of a wizard, a cleric (preferably with a blasty domain), a lock, and let's say a sorceror would have a similar alpha strike potential, and none of them would be 'going nova' In fact some could probably go nova on top of that. The only thing the spell scrolls do is allow them to cast different spells using your resource list it's not actually any more impressive than if they were takign their normal actions, unless you achieve spell synergy, and frankly that's doable in either scenario. As for 4e tomes: I don't have AP on me, and can't seem to find a reliable quote of the rules. However If it works as you described it sounds more like the Magic item gives you access to the spells as long as you use that item. COuld you use more than one simultaneously? if you lost the tome did you keep the powers? It sounds like the book is eating the spells you'd notrmally cast to give you the spells so the book itself acts as aspell converter but with only two posisble outputs. I think I'm missing something here.</blockquote>

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