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Message: <blockquote data-quote="RealAlHazred" data-source="post: 6749917" data-attributes="member: 25818">Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:I had an incredibly long post eaten by a browser, so I'm slightly peeved while I retype this. Know that this is frustration at a tool, and not at you. It's not infinite. It's got a minimum size (for artificers, that's your level +4), and there are a finite set of spells to draw from (there are 300 spells in the PHB of levels 1-7), and the size of the book is class-level dependent (since you can't copy a schema if you don't have a slot - if you get a 5th level scroll, you can't copy it until level 14). There's also a very small chance of actually getting that many schema through scrolls (I'll get to that later). For comparison, the wizard's base spellbook is twice your level +4 in size, and there are only 200 spells in the PHB they could copy (levels 1-9, and they get access to each level sooner than the artificer). Also, I'm still considering restricting schema to non-unique spells only (those that appear on more than one non-artificer, non-subclass spell list), which would reduce the artificer's valid selection choices to 209 and would remove many problem spells from his possible arsenal (such as Find Familiar). However, the rest of this post doesn't do that. I have explained it, but I'll put it all together here for you and show you more math. To me, math makes a much more compelling argument than a bad feeling based on zero applicable play experience. There are three points to make here. The first is that word, "extra". You seem to assume I'm assuming only the basic number of schema (24 for a 20th level artificer) as okay, and anything above that is "extra". That's not what I'm doing. I'm assuming a single artificer is able to learn some schema from scrolls, and I'm actually working out how many scrolls of each level the artificer can expect to find. If I'm balancing my test artificers against this expanded level of schema, then finding some scrolls and copying them so you know more than you start with is not providing "extra" schema. That is, in fact, what I'm doing. Second, I've said many times that it's harder to find scrolls, but let's look at exactly how many you're expected to get by looking directly at the loot.Show[sblock]Spell scrolls only show up on treasure hoard tables, so we're going to look at how many those tables produce. DMG page 133 shows that it assumes a typical campaign will provide 7 rolls on the CR 0-4 hoard table, 18 rolls on the CR 5-10 table, 12 rolls on the CR 11-16 table, and 8 rolls on the CR 17+ table. That's for the entire party, levels 1-20. [One of the things I typed out here was the explicit breakdown of every treasure hoard table, showing its odds of producing certain numbers of rolls on Tables A-D (you don't need to look higher than D, since Tables E-I don't have any scrolls on them that the artificer can copy.) I'm not typing that out again; you can look at the treasure tables and hoard tables to find the probabilities I used.] What emerges is the following. The <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value" target="_blank">expected value</a> of scrolls of each level a party can find, by DMG assumptions, is:1st: 4.032, available to copy after level 2 (one level after the wizard)2nd: 1.6591, available to copy after level 5 (two levels after the wizard)3rd: 0.6822, available to copy after level 8 (three levels after the wizard)4th: 1.3888, available to copy after level 11 (four levels after the wizard)5th: 1.1684, available to copy after level 14 (five levels after the wizard)6th: 1.484, available to copy after level 17 (six levels after the wizard)7th: 1.7192, available to copy after level 20 (seven levels after the wizard)Total: 12.1337. There's no way of determining which spells are on those scrolls. Thankfully, the artificer isn't restricted to one class' spell list, so that's a step we don't need to do. I'm going to make the assumption that all spells of the same level are equally likely to appear on a spell scroll (even though this isn't necessarily true - since wizard spell scrolls are actually used for spellbook expansion, one would assume there's a higher demand for wizard-list spell scrolls from whoever's making them in the first place. But I have no way to actually implement that - and in the absence of other prior information, it's logical to assume <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_indifference" target="_blank">equal priors</a>). Furthermore, since this is a stress test on the expectation, let's assume the absolute best possible scenario for expanding spellbooks - that none of those scrolls are duplicates. (There are 300 spells and you're sampling ~12 times with replacement; I'll need to double-check my formulas, but this appears to have a 92% probability of at least one duplicate if each possible spell is equally likely. But I digress.) Let's assume the artificer holds on to every single spell scroll the party finds that he could, potentially, copy, and then does so at the first available opportunity - I call this the Turbo Packrat artificer. Note that this is not exactly likely - sometimes you'll want to use the scrolls, and if your party has a wizard in it, he'll not only want the wizard scrolls you find, but he'll be able to copy those sooner than you (and you can't copy them out of his spellbook). At level 20, the Turbo Packrat Artificer goes from 25 schema to 37.1337 schema. Yes, this is an increase of 50%. However, that's still only 37/300 (or 12.3%) of the artificer library. A wizard with zero spells copied (because the Turbo Packrat Artificer is hogging them all) has 44/200 (22%) of their potential spell library, and they have fewer restrictions on how to use it (see below). This is compounded by the artificer's slow spell slot access. Let's be ABSOLUTELY CRAZY and assume the artificer gets 100% of his team's career's loot at level 1 as a freebie, so he can copy every schema he can as soon as he gets the right slot level. Let's also pick a level - level 11, say, which is when fighters get their third attack and wizards get fifth level spells. (This isn't one of those levels I could have picked where other progressions get something new and artificers don't - artificers just unlocked a new spell level too, and 11th also comes with a third guild ability and a Salvage Essence upgrade.) At this point, an artificer could have 15 base schema... but could only copy the 1st-4th level schema, of which we expect 7.762. He'll have 22.7 schema, none higher than 4th (he is expected to have about 2 4ths with his natural progression and entire career's worth of scrolls). The standard wizard with zero spells copied has 26 spells in his spellbook, with four 4ths and two 5ths if he's always taking the strongest ones, and he has more spell slots with which to use them (including higher level slots with which to upcast his weaker ones). And that's with an entire campaign's worth of wealth squirreled away at level 1. Now imagine a more realistic trickle of treasure. Yes, it's even weaker on the arty's front. Your point about multiple artificers increasing their versatility is a true one (although it's not a "double", since the scrolls found above are across the entire party; the only extra schema would be the ones the artificers pick from level-ups - since they both start with Detect Magic and Identify, two 20th level Turbo Packrat Artificers in a party would each know 58 unique schema with these super-duper-generous assumptions on scrolls), but this does not come without an opportunity cost of its own - you have more than one artificer, meaning one fewer member of any other class (a heavy armor tank, a high-accuracy archer, a full-strength caster, a feature-monkey, or what), and unlike wizards, the artificer has an intense limit on actually using his schema. I'll get to that next.[/sblock]tl;dr: The artificer can, at absolute best (assuming no duplicates, copying every single scroll you find instead of using them or passing the compatible ones to the wizard, and only looking at level 20 when the delayed spell access is downplayed), expect to know 37 different schema out of a set of 300. There's some variability on that given that this is an expected value (and I'm not at the moment prepared to fit a confidence interval around that), but it's still far from knowing every one of those 300 spells, and it's even further from knowing infinite spells. Incidentally? For all of my testing, I've been assuming 35 (which is more believable if you use a scroll or get a duplicate, though it still assumes you're giving every scroll to the artificer), and testing both that and the lower limit of 24; I realistically expect an artificer to know somewhere between these (closer to the 35 than the 24, because the only competition for compatible scrolls you'll have is on wizard spells, from wizards, who you may not have in the same party). In other words, the number of spells in that spellbook does not contain "extra" spells beyond the balance point (which it would if, say, it had 40 in it). Finally, there's restrictions on the artificer's use of the schema (which means each individual additional schema is not as powerful an increase as an additional spell would be). I expressed this above, but let me put it in one place for you.And yet it appears you are ignoring them. I left out another "limit" here because it's not so much a limit as an opportunity cost, but artificers - unlike warlocks, sorcerers, and wizards - have zero abilities that restore spell slots, so their limited number of slow-progression spell slots are even smaller in practice relative to their non-bard full-casting brethren. (The ability to cast from craft reserve is functionally equivalent to knowing a small number of extra slots, but you don't get duplicate spells without an opportunity cost, and only the spellforgers' Augmentation Savant and the alchemists's Infuse Bomb are on anything other than a long-rest recharge.) This is the kind of argument you will need to address. A simple "bad gut feeling" based on a different game (3e) without any applicable (5e wizard) experience simply isn't going to cut it. (There is another point, too, and that's that it's okay if the artificer excels at something. In the case of schema, its particularly good at inventing a crazy solution involving a lower-level spell and the magical equivalent of duct tape and paper clips, particularly if you're planning ahead for just such an occasion. That, and buffing up the team's gear, is basically the entire artificer.) Revisions Made:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I've swapped Precision Reflexes (that really needs a new name...) and Infuse Bomb, I've increased the augment effect of bombs, and I've made them ranged attacks (with the creator having the option of using their casting score instead of Dexterity for the attack roll; they remain Int-based for the damage roll and save DC) instead of spell attacks. Testing showed alchemists took too long to "feel unique" unless they spent just about all of their downtime crafting alchemical items, and if they did that then having a bonus-action attack at 3rd was a little over the top. (This change also puts their bonus-action bomb attack at the same level spellforgers and most other characters get Extra Attack, which is appealing.) Their bombs also didn't have enough of an impact on battle at higher levels - the slower spell level progression hurt alchemists more than anticipated. Switching them to ranged attacks was to make the alchemist particularly appealing to rogues if multiclassing is allowed (a sneak attack bomb is positively deadly), especially because you only need 3 levels to get the bomb now. (Sneak Attack scales faster than bomb damage if you're targeting a single foe, but bomb damage and DC scale better if you're using them in an area.)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I also tweaked Precision Reflexes' wording a bit, so you can't use it to use arcane devices as a bonus action. (You can still use the bonus action to retrieve the right device, just not to cast its spell. I don't mind this increased ability to use them - the alchemist technically specializes in Infuse Arcane Device and Infuse Potion, but it's hard to see that underneath the name and the bombs, and that's deliberate - but I don't want it to bust things open.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Power Surge has been adjusted so that it can't be used to overload and destroy cursed magic items. I missed this earlier because there aren't any items in the DMG with both charges and curses, but it could easily happen, and I don't want an easy out on this (though Lift Curse still works to temporarily get rid of such items, artificers shouldn't be any better at permanently dealing with such curses than any other class).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The golemists' guild now clearly limits you to one homunculus.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Reconstruction and Total Repair spells are slightly altered to reflect their very limited nature.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I changed the artificer's base spell list to drop Crusader's Mantle (Disruption Aura), which is a paladin unique otherwise. Crusader's Mantle was really only there because it was on Keith's artificer, but I'm putting more development into this, and the more I think about it, the more I prefer leaving easy radiant damage to the paladin. </li> </ul>I'm considering limiting the schema to non-unique spells only, and also removing Shield of Faith (Deflection Field), which is also a paladin unique. (There is a third otherwise-unique, Blade Barrier, but artificer spells are sorely limited at the high levels and that one's appropriate.) I'm also considering simplifying the overall language about extra components (exploiting the ability of a component pouch to replace all M components otherwise), but I'm not exactly sure how to go about doing this.</blockquote>

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