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Message: <blockquote data-quote="RealAlHazred" data-source="post: 6749929" data-attributes="member: 25818">Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:Still haven't heard which of those points you disagree with....That's good to hear. Can we discuss the magic item recipe problem, as you see it? I don't think there is one, and I'll say why below. +X weapons don't require attunement. Only the ones that add new powers to your repertoire do - meaning every warrior class has a minimum number of powers (what their class provides) and a maximum number of powers (that number, +3 - one for each extra attunement slot - with even more leeway since not every attuned item gives a new power, and some give lots of new powers. The ones that give the most new powers are limited even further, requiring attunement by a specific class - usually including a wizard, by the way). The reason why I mentioned +Xs is that they radically change the accuracy curve. The game's bounded accuracy curve works perfectly for normal weapons (there are a couple of hitches at high levels where you need some form of magical weapon to bypass resistance or immunity, but you also get more and more ways of actually making your weapons magical as you increase - EK bonded weapon and bladelock pact weapon, monk unarmed strikes, and for the buddies who lack these, you've got the Magic Weapon spell). Adding in magic weapons moves attackers with them into an entirely different category, such that their attacks may as well be entirely different powers. Is there any circumstance where a character can actually give up the use of an ability, forever, as opposed to the DM taking it away? Because the DM can totes take away the wizard's spellbook (or the artificer's book of schema) too, and unlike the warriors, he can't just disarm a guard or loot a corpse and have something perfectly servicable to wield. (Fighters who don't rely on one specific weapon property (i.e. Finesse, or the Polearm Mastery feat) can fight equally well with just about any weapon, largely because the math works the way I described above.) To answer this question, yes, there is - it's swapping out spells during the level-up process. However, people who swap out spells do so because the older spell isn't pulling its weight anymore. Maybe monsters have too many HP for Sleep to be useful anymore. Maybe Burning Hands just isn't outputting enough damage to justify its really short range anymore. In these cases, it's akin to picking up a new power "for free", because even if you'd retained the old one, it wouldn't be worth using anymore. The analogy to weapons isn't that he'll constantly keep using Flame Tongue + Frostbrand - it's that the +1 sword he picked up ten levels ago isn't as useful to him as the +2 that he just got. A character with 5 powers, one of which he never uses, who exchanges that power for another that he is likely to use, has 5 powers that he is likely to use at any given time (class mechanics depending). A character with 5 powers, one of which he never uses, who learns a new power.... has 5 powers that he is likely to use at any given time (class mechanics depending).You still haven't explained what's odd about this, since you focused so heavily on the spellbook aspect. That's why I keep asking for other discussion angles - I'm actually not seeing anything weird on this. See, if the DMG items were not meant to be within players' grasp via item creation, why would you include rules on formulas in the first place? (Page 128-9, 141) All the artificer does is that it checks which items the DM is already OK allowing in the game (because they're the ones the artificer has access to), looks for which ones have a low enough rarity (so truly rare items are still outside of the players' grasp), and then provides a mechanism by which the formula can be placed - with a risk and definite loss to the artificer (since the item you salvage isn't available to be used until you build a replacement, meaning you basically "buy" an extra of the item over a very long span of time for twice the price). A game with lots of +1 weapons won't break if the artificer is able to take the third +1 longsword you find, salvage it, and use what he learns to make the +1 whip that your bard really wants, for instance - but that same artificer won't be able to give everyone a Flame Tongue unless you place one in a treasure hoard and allow the artificer enough resources to make it (assuming you go entirely by the book without any adjustment, the party's spellcasters needs to pay 500gp (assuming a modest lifestyle) and spend 20 downtime days to build one - how much downtime did you give out / get between the last adventure? It very likely might not have been long enough to build two, which would be the minimum required to replace the sword you salvaged and give a second one to a different teammate.) Revisions made:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"Object Dependence" added into the rules for spellcrafting, which subsumes the "object components" that were discussed under cantrips, spellcrafting, rituals, and spells. All of those sections were adjusted as a result. It's more elegant when it's consolidated.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Added another cantrip known at 10th level, and made mending optional. You finish off with 4.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Clarified that ritual books (such as from the Ritual Caster feat or the Tome of Ancient Secrets invocation) are spellbooks, as far as copying to/from books of schema are concerned. (Given how no one's really having a problem with tomelocks, I don't think this is a problem mechanically, but this was for consistency and to make absolutely sure that, although you can have a tomelock crib rituals off of a wizard, you can't use that tomelock as a gateway for extra schema.)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Magecraft is now its own class feature, rather than rolled into Spellcrafting. (It was already pretty distinct, and I could hypothetically see another spellcrafter without access to it or someone with access to it but with a different source of craft reserve (say, a Magewright feat or NPC feature similar to the Martial Adept feat), so...).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Prototype no longer makes any reference to "charges", preventing some potential exploits (the only ones I found were in my own spells, but it's easier to put the clamp on this early). In fact, it now includes wording that automatically triggers a mishap if you try to tinker with it as if it were charged - they're just that unstable. The magitechnician's Flash of Genius, Jumpstart, and Power Surge also got slight tweaks because of this change.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Spell flasks now dissipate harmlessly if they're damaged (unless you spend the action to break it, that is). This prevents a rather spectacular spell nova if they're employed like bombs can be, as an area trap.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Clarified what Construct Dominance does if the construct is independent (i.e. warforged, (arguably) modrons, etc.). It causes the construct to behave as if charmed - note that this isn't the same as actually applying the charm condition, so it should break through charm immunity.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Surprise! All the spells (new ones plus remixed old ones) are now presented in full, instead of just abbreviated form. The completely new spells appear with blue names. There's a few subtle surprises in there, largely motivated by AlHazred.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Another editing pass.</li> </ul> I've also come across a potential hurdle at the low levels - before you have a lot of slots available, it's really hard to keep Personal Weapon Augmentation running except during big scenes. I didn't notice how much of an impact this had until I introduced Magic Stone to the list of cantrips - it's too perfect a fit to remove, but also too much of a gamechanger, especially since it's "non-core". This leads me to suggest reworking Personal Weapon Augmentation to be on short-rest craft reserve - basically activating it by spending 1 craft reserve (short rest) and choosing an element type, or by casting Weapon Augmentation (and matching its elemental type). This will increase the artificer's demand on craft reserve slightly at the low levels, which further incentivizes them to be frugal with their arcane devices, and it also increases the emphasis on Intelligence. This is currently being tested. The default is that this takes a bonus action and lasts 1 hour if cast from craft reserve , but it happens automatically for the duration of Weapon Augmentation. If this change is made, artificers might no longer automatically learn Weapon Augmentation (as the reason for them all having it would have been rolled into their class features - while most of them would still take it, it'd be to artificers what Eldritch Blast is to warlocks.)</blockquote>

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