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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Pyrex" data-source="post: 3359937" data-attributes="member: 11600">Absolutely.  On any given day not only does the sorcerer likely have more spells known vs. spells memorized than the wizard (because every spell the Sor has ever learned is always available vs the Wiz only being able to memorize a set number of spell levels); but given the casting DC structure and the huge amount of healing available from party divine casters (or CLW potions) the Sor can easily belt out 2-3x as many spell levels in spells the wizard can.If there is both a Wiz and a Sor in a party, the Sor will not only know every single spell the Wizard does, he'll also always have the right one available, and he'll easily be able to cast it more often than the wizard.Consider a 10th level Wiz & Sor.  There's no reason for the Wiz to ever bother memorizing/casting 3rd level or lower spells because the Sor already knows them all and can cast them all day without getting tired.Without the limiters it's not even a contest.With the limiters it becomes closer, but the Cleric still has the advantage because of the huge number of spells known.  The Sor has to wait and see someone cast Fire Shield.  The Clr just knows all 4th level spells on the base Clr list.  That's huge.Yep, that's exactly how I intended them.  Glad you like them.Didn't I say that?Thought I did.  Sorry I wasn't clearer.   <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /> So staying within the paradigm of Cha-based Spellcraft checks let's look at an expert 15'th level Sor and see what DC's we need:Cha:  25 [+7] (18[Initial] + 4[Cloak] + 3[Level])Spellcraft: 18 ranks Addl Bonuses: +3 (Circlet of Persuasion), + 3(Skill Focus: Spellcraft), +2 (Synergy bonus from Knowledge Arcana)Total Modifier: +33I think this is well within the range of 'Expert' without being degenerately munchkin (which would include at least +3 to Cha from a tome, +2 to +6 Cha in racial bonuses, +6 instead of +4 from the cloak, and additional feats that increase Spellcraft).At level 15 I certainly don't want to see more than 25% chance for an expert caster to be casting a 9th level spell.  Personally I'd rather see it around 10%, but YMMV.So, your base DC for 9th level spells is 15+9*2=33, which means it's at least 15pts (25% chance) too low.I think the first thing we need to do is increase the scaling by Spell Level to at least *3.  Or possibly change it to 10+SL*4.10+4*SL gets us to DC 46, which is still a 40% chance for our expert caster.15+4*SL gets us to DC 51, which is 15% chance, which seems fine at the high end but might be punitively hard for lower level casters.  DC 19 seems harsh for a 1st level Sor casting a 1st level spell, but may not actually be too bad if we expect the exceptional 1st level caster to have +11 Spellcraft (+4 Cha, +4 Ranks, +3 Skill Focus).Still seems rough, and *4 is not a healthy scaling factor as it makes things really rough on 'average' casters.So we either need to change the roll we're using for the check, make the DC's non-linear, or add some sort of depletable component to Sor casting.Currently I'm leaning towards giving Sor's a depletable casting check similar to my proposal for Faith.</blockquote>

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