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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kalendraf" data-source="post: 1910828" data-attributes="member: 3433">I mostly DM, and take great pride in being able to challenge my players with all manner of foe.  But since the question is directed at players, I'll have to draw upon my experience there and come up with my answer...My most frustrating situations as a player have come against foes/encounters that were EL +4 or more above the party level.  Not kidding there.  I've seen this happen a few too many times, and it really irks me, especially when the party has no chance to avoid it, no way to diplomatically get past it, and there is no special alternative help given.  If you pit the party against something that strong and they have no choice but to fight, it can easily cause a TPK.  This situation can arise if the DM is overly sadistic, new to the rules, incompetent or just plain doesn't care.As a player, it makes things overly difficult:A) Playing in character w/o player knowledge, you really would have no way of knowing how tough most foes are when encountered for the 1st time.B) Seeing the scenario unfold, you have to give the DM some credit that he has a reason for doing this.C) After the character deaths, you realize the DM totally messed up, and it's hard to hold your tongue.What's even more dangerous about this type of situation is if your party actually manages to overcome the encounter by getting extremely lucky (several party crit hits, monster failed saves, etc).  The DM will feel confident in his ability to properly challenge the party and continue to toss this or even stronger things at your party.  The ultimate outcome of the escalating challenges is pretty much guaranteed to be a TPK at some point.  Afterwards, they may just chalk it up to dumb luck, and blindly continue down the same path next time around.</blockquote>

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