Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Asian D&D
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8969511" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>Japan is a complicated case because, while exploitation is still quite possible, as you say they have gained a great deal of prominence. [USER=6801252]@The-Magic-Sword[/USER] has already said much of why it is unlikely to be as much of a problem as (say) depictions of the Roma peoples or lifting stuff from the Navajo or from Australian Aboriginal cultures, so I won't repeat that. What they said is good and worth remembering.</p><p></p><p>But you can still stumble. E.g., using anime tropes without context. Consider the importance of <em>Journey to the West</em>, the myths of Momotaro/"Peach Boy" and <em>The Bamboo Cutter</em>, or the Imperial Regalia (sword/mirror/gem.) All <em>old</em>, and <em>dense</em> with cultural context. You must learn not just the work, but when and why it was written, and how it (and how it's seen) has changed over time. Consider Momotaro. Once little more than a minor folk-tale, until Imperial Japan re-purposed it into a national founding myth <em>specifically</em> to rev up nationalistic fervor and anti-American sentiment. Momotaro = the Emperor (and thus Japan/the govt); squabbling animal-friends who must learn to work together = the people of Japan under the Emperor's guidance; evil pillaging Oni = the United States (because propaganda be propaganda, Imperial Japan's horrible war crimes be damned.) But grokking <em>why</em> Japan wanted this, its importance to them, and the complexity it took on after the US defeated Japan, is...really difficult! Even though we're allies now, the folktale itself remains highly relevant, e.g. it's a critical part of <em>Dragon Ball</em>. Which was one of the first "big" anime to make it to America!</p><p></p><p>Point being, this is just one, small example, but already sprawling in complexity. You have entire Eastern philosophical traditions, cultural concepts (e.g. the Mandate of Heaven or "cultivation"*), and social/political/mythic backdrops with few to no proper parallels in Western cultures. E.g., contrast Joan of Arc and Hua Mulan: both mythologized warrior-women who successfully waged war for their country, yet Joan was (and to an extent is) deeply controversial, while Mulan is (and always was) deeply beloved, as were the fully historical Qin Liangyu and Liang Hongyu. Thoughtlessly using Joan of Arc tropes with Liang Hongyu would <em>almost certainly</em> result in backlash.</p><p></p><p>But! That doesn't mean you can't do interesting things with this stuff. Disney's animated <em>Mulan</em> is, as I understand it, <em>generally</em> fairly well-received in China nowadays, even if the original launch was fraught with political issues. Dreamworks' <em>Kung Fu Panda</em>, on the other hand, is legit loved in China, and sparked debates there about why native Chinese films can't seem to achieve the same effect.** By comparison, the live-action version of <em>Mulan</em> was a massive flop in China, with reviews on some social media platforms dropping to less than 5/10, because it was seen as pandering, exploitative, heavily leaning on Western stereotypes of Chinese culture, and riddled with unnecessary and weakening rewrites (especially making Mulan have tons of <em>qi</em>, essentially giving her superpowers.)</p><p></p><p>The animated <em>Mulan</em> and the KFP franchise show that it is eminently possible for entirely Western groups to create stories that lift actual myths or stories and cultural trappings and do it not only well, but possibly <em>very</em> well. Conversely, the live-action version shows how it's possible to not only mess up, but mess up on something that had previously been reasonably well-liked, even while actively trying to make it <em>more</em> likable, <em>more</em> culturally-fitting.</p><p></p><p>From this, we should not take the false lesson that no one is allowed to remix cultural things. Instead, it should tell us that remixing cultural stuff is <em>hard</em>, and comes with a certain duty of care. We must rise to the occasion, not quail before it, nor complain that we are expected to do so.</p><p></p><p>* It's <em>sort of</em> a hybrid physical-training/spiritual-enlightenment thing that justifies in-story "real" character levels. Higher cultivation = more transcendental power. Cultivation fiction, aka"xianxia" (lit. "immortal/saint heroes"), is EXTREMELY popular in China. Partly, it's because of the IRL practice <em>qigong</em>, "life-energy cultivation." <em>Qigong</em> involves exercises/practiced motions to promote physical fitness, mental/spiritual wellbeing, and martial arts training. It's a big and complex thing, but poorly understood in the West...and very easy to get VERY wrong.</p><p></p><p>** The TL;DR there seems to be "we defer and idealize too hard, creating perfect main chars without flaws and thus with no compelling story." And I get that. Chars like Golden Age Superman (or Captain America) were often shallow patriotism loudspeakers, rather than interesting characters. Thankfully that's changed with time, e.g. <em>Superman: Red Son</em> or the DCAU.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 8969511, member: 6790260"] Japan is a complicated case because, while exploitation is still quite possible, as you say they have gained a great deal of prominence. [USER=6801252]@The-Magic-Sword[/USER] has already said much of why it is unlikely to be as much of a problem as (say) depictions of the Roma peoples or lifting stuff from the Navajo or from Australian Aboriginal cultures, so I won't repeat that. What they said is good and worth remembering. But you can still stumble. E.g., using anime tropes without context. Consider the importance of [I]Journey to the West[/I], the myths of Momotaro/"Peach Boy" and [I]The Bamboo Cutter[/I], or the Imperial Regalia (sword/mirror/gem.) All [I]old[/I], and [I]dense[/I] with cultural context. You must learn not just the work, but when and why it was written, and how it (and how it's seen) has changed over time. Consider Momotaro. Once little more than a minor folk-tale, until Imperial Japan re-purposed it into a national founding myth [I]specifically[/I] to rev up nationalistic fervor and anti-American sentiment. Momotaro = the Emperor (and thus Japan/the govt); squabbling animal-friends who must learn to work together = the people of Japan under the Emperor's guidance; evil pillaging Oni = the United States (because propaganda be propaganda, Imperial Japan's horrible war crimes be damned.) But grokking [I]why[/I] Japan wanted this, its importance to them, and the complexity it took on after the US defeated Japan, is...really difficult! Even though we're allies now, the folktale itself remains highly relevant, e.g. it's a critical part of [I]Dragon Ball[/I]. Which was one of the first "big" anime to make it to America! Point being, this is just one, small example, but already sprawling in complexity. You have entire Eastern philosophical traditions, cultural concepts (e.g. the Mandate of Heaven or "cultivation"*), and social/political/mythic backdrops with few to no proper parallels in Western cultures. E.g., contrast Joan of Arc and Hua Mulan: both mythologized warrior-women who successfully waged war for their country, yet Joan was (and to an extent is) deeply controversial, while Mulan is (and always was) deeply beloved, as were the fully historical Qin Liangyu and Liang Hongyu. Thoughtlessly using Joan of Arc tropes with Liang Hongyu would [I]almost certainly[/I] result in backlash. But! That doesn't mean you can't do interesting things with this stuff. Disney's animated [I]Mulan[/I] is, as I understand it, [I]generally[/I] fairly well-received in China nowadays, even if the original launch was fraught with political issues. Dreamworks' [I]Kung Fu Panda[/I], on the other hand, is legit loved in China, and sparked debates there about why native Chinese films can't seem to achieve the same effect.** By comparison, the live-action version of [I]Mulan[/I] was a massive flop in China, with reviews on some social media platforms dropping to less than 5/10, because it was seen as pandering, exploitative, heavily leaning on Western stereotypes of Chinese culture, and riddled with unnecessary and weakening rewrites (especially making Mulan have tons of [I]qi[/I], essentially giving her superpowers.) The animated [I]Mulan[/I] and the KFP franchise show that it is eminently possible for entirely Western groups to create stories that lift actual myths or stories and cultural trappings and do it not only well, but possibly [I]very[/I] well. Conversely, the live-action version shows how it's possible to not only mess up, but mess up on something that had previously been reasonably well-liked, even while actively trying to make it [I]more[/I] likable, [I]more[/I] culturally-fitting. From this, we should not take the false lesson that no one is allowed to remix cultural things. Instead, it should tell us that remixing cultural stuff is [I]hard[/I], and comes with a certain duty of care. We must rise to the occasion, not quail before it, nor complain that we are expected to do so. * It's [I]sort of[/I] a hybrid physical-training/spiritual-enlightenment thing that justifies in-story "real" character levels. Higher cultivation = more transcendental power. Cultivation fiction, aka"xianxia" (lit. "immortal/saint heroes"), is EXTREMELY popular in China. Partly, it's because of the IRL practice [I]qigong[/I], "life-energy cultivation." [I]Qigong[/I] involves exercises/practiced motions to promote physical fitness, mental/spiritual wellbeing, and martial arts training. It's a big and complex thing, but poorly understood in the West...and very easy to get VERY wrong. ** The TL;DR there seems to be "we defer and idealize too hard, creating perfect main chars without flaws and thus with no compelling story." And I get that. Chars like Golden Age Superman (or Captain America) were often shallow patriotism loudspeakers, rather than interesting characters. Thankfully that's changed with time, e.g. [I]Superman: Red Son[/I] or the DCAU. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Asian D&D
Top