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Message: <blockquote data-quote="The Sigil" data-source="post: 174319" data-attributes="member: 2013">My 2 coppers (Long)...For what it's worth, here is my take on the situation (admittedly, I haven't had time to thoroughly go through D&Dg or MotP, but have some ideas anyway).The way I see it, a compromise CAN be reached in which Asmodeus has divine powers without necessarily giving him true divine status.(Maybe this should go into the housefules forum, but here goes)...Through whatever rules mechanism you wish to use, certain very powerful beings can gain "control" of an outer (or inner) plane.  Said being may control the plane in its entirety or merely a layer.  (I would suggest that the appropriate mechanism has something to do with the being's Wisdom - force of its own will and Charisma - ability to impose that will on others - but don't have a great mechanic yet).  Doing so takes time (a week?  a month? a year? certainly an amount of time that would allow the control attempt to be challenged - see below).The plane or layer (hereafter simply "plane" for the sake of simplicity) reacts in some ways to the will of the being in control of the layer (i.e., general coloration, temperature, flora and fauna, features, and so forth), though it takes a certain amount of concentration to actually control and shape a certain feature into the plane (i.e., a being in control of a plane may subconsciously change everything to blacks and reds and make the landscape jagged and mountainous, but to create a specific mountain or to make a specific spot red or black takes concentration).It is possible for multiple beings to gain "control" of a plane or layer simultaneously.  The general look of the plane corresponds to the most powerful PRESENT (as in "must be present on the plane," not as in "current/at this time") controller's desires / subconcious controls.  A specific, limited area near another controller may shape itself to that controller's subconscious."Grabbing control" of a layer at quasi-deity level can be done without alerting anyone.  Attempting to "grab" a layer at lesser power level alerts all lesser powers with control of the plane present on the plane at the time of the "grab."  (Intermediate and Greater powers are not alerted.)  Since it takes time (week/month/year) to "grab" control over a plane, the other powers can react to stop the "grab."  Similarly, attempting to grab a level of control that would give the powers of an intermediate deity alerts all intermediate powers on the plane (not greater powers).  Attempting to grab a level of control that would give powers of a greater deity alerts all greater powers.  This applies to layers and planes separately - you can grab greater power on a layer without alerting a greater power controlling the whole plane - provided he is on a different layer at the time.  You can also try to grab lesser/intermediate/greater power throughout a whole plane - but that alerts all lesser/intermediate/greater powers present on the whole plane.When in a plane (or layer) that s/he controls, a being is effectively considered a deity, with all attendant powers that come with that status.  When on another layer of the same plane (in this case, plane does not refer to plane/layer), the creature retains its deific status, but has its power level reduced (perhaps knocked down from greater to intermediate, intermediate to lesser, but never less than quasi-deity).When on an adjacent plane (your cosmology may vary), the power level is knocked down again (though again, never less than quasi-deity).  On all other planes, the being is considered a quasi-deity.IOW, it is not worshippers that grant the being power, but the control of a plane and its attendant energies.  However, this power is more limited than that of a "true" deity - the power extends only as far as the plane itself (you may wish to rule that it also allows granting of spells since the granting comes from the god - on the plane - instead of the cleric - in another plane).  Specifically, "omniscience" to a being such as Asmodeus applies only to Hell, not to the Prime or any other plane.  He may know everything going on in Hell, but relies on lieutenants, spies, and other such things to relay information about what is going on in Greyhawk.This allows creatures like Asmodeus to wield very real power in their own planes - sufficient power to beat off "true" deities -  but still keeps them "under control" so they don't go off and rule the universe.It also explains the relationship between Asmodeus and other Arch-Devils... Asmodeus might have the control to be a greater power on all of the layers of Hell (the whole plane) but only the layer he is currently on (the 9th) reflects his subconscious.  Other demon princes have gained greater power status on other layers (and since they are present there, the layers reflect their aims - e.g. the 7th layer reflects Baalzebub IIRC, while the 8th layer reflects Mephistopheles).It also explains why some beings have powers across all layers (e.g., Pazuzu - perhaps he grabbed lesser power across the whole plane).  Since the demon princes are greater powers on their own layers and intermediate powers everywhere else, they don't worry about Pazuzu - they will always be more powerful then him regardless of the layer they meet on.Now we have a basis for the wars across the layers of the Hell... the various demon princes all would love to gain greater power control of layers 1-8 since they can do so with out alerting Asmodeus, and then their power will be close to his - they can attempt a grab of the entire plane of Hell itself.  The demon princes build armies and war with each other in order to "keep others busy" while they make power grabs.  It's awfully tough for a devil prince with lesser power status on a layer to stop another being from grabbing lesser power status when the prince is beset by armies sent by his rival-to-be.Asmodeus reacts "with extreme prejudice" only if someone makes a grab at the 9th layer or the entirety of Hell, trusting his lieutenants to infight so badly that none of them ever gains control of more than one or two layers tops.  He also knows that since he is a greater power throughout the plane and others are greater powers only on their individual layers, he can fight them in layers 1-8 as equals... but they will always be inferior should they assault him on layer 9 (they know this too).This also gives rise to powers of demon princes such as Demogorgon, Orcus, and Juiblex (one assumes all three are greater powers throughout the entire plane of the Abyss and since their chaotic nature makes it more difficult to summon armies, and there are so many layers to move through/hide in, none has ever managed to remove the other two from control).It also explains why the devils and demons try to win souls on the prime plane - they can't confront the gods of goodness directly, so they attempt to build their own forces while weakening the armies of "The Enemy."Finally, you get a rationale for such creatures as the Elemental Princes and Elemental Lords from the inner planes by using this system.Is it perfect?  No.  Is it totally codified?  No.  (I haven't come up with hard rules for exactly how you can even take over a plane.)  Might it just manage to walk the lines between those who demand that Asmodeus be a deity himself and those who demand that he not have such power?   I think so.  I hope so.Also, anyone else notice that the whole "divine ranks" concept smacks slightly of the old boxed Immortals Rules (gold box) from the mid-80's?  I thought the concepts of the gods and the planes as espoused in that work were at least as interesting as those in Planescape (Gods shutting off access to their dimensions entirely in order to conduct their own work and studies?  Stupendous!)  The adventures written for that set were pretty bad, but I thought the ideas about planar cosmology and divinity were cool.--The Sigil</blockquote>

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