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Message: <blockquote data-quote="JohnBrown" data-source="post: 182972" data-attributes="member: 2243">Erik,First, A Guide to Hell is a fine book.  I like it very much. I don’t have a problem with the idea of fallen celestials. I have no problem with the idea of a cosmology where Asmodeus (or anything else) is the source of all evil.  I simply don’t feel that it “fits” very well with everything thing else that came before it or after it (TSR/WoTC published material).  You and many others feel it does, that’s great.  I think it stands better as a basis of a dualistic or monotheistic point of view than it does from a polytheistic one, that’s all.  I asked what I asked because you said the fallen celestials are “cool”.  Again I ask, in and of itself, what is cool about an evil celestial (as opposed to say an good orc)?Interesting (as you just said), I agree with.  It opens up all kinds of story possibilities (but then, so does a group of Lawful Good orcs).  Anything that is against type has this potential.  Obviously, the concept of fallen celestials strikes some cord in your imagination that I am not appreciating.  For you, and many others, it seems to fill some void in the Great Wheel cosmos.  Ultimately I guess what I asking is what makes the Great Wheel better for having Asmodeus as some great uber-evil fallen celestial as opposed to an uber-evil being that “always was and always will be?”  What makes the Great Wheel better because the Blood War is going on?  Sure it’s a cool idea, but doesn’t anyone ever say “Hey, how do these infinite-sized armies moving across infinite-sized planes ever even find each other to have a battle?”  (Mathematically Infinity doesn’t “cancel” Infinity…the question isn’t WHY are the demons and devils fighting, but the HOW that doesn’t make sense)  Let alone ask, “Why in the world would I, as DM, care to include something that my players can’t have any affect on?”   It doesn’t matter how cool the DM thinks something is if his or her players don’t.  I’m not attacking your point of view Erik.  I am simply stating mine, and if anything, trying to get you to clarify yours.  You obviously see something that I don’t, and haven’t gotten from your written work.  I would like to understand your point of view better.I didn’t create the Great Wheel; I just trying to have it make sense to me <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />John</blockquote>

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