Assassin/sneak style character advice

[Theroc]

Another PbP on enworld sprang up, and my character concept is one I'm not particularly familiar with mechanically speaking(to a degree anyway).

I want to make a sneaky assassin. Campaign is for 'evil' characters, so I'll be able to kill when expedient etc... Rpwise.

The concept in my head was a Ninja(Complete Adventurer)/Monk... but I might be swayed by other options.

The ninja seemed cool to me, and seems a natural fit with Monk, but the Sudden Strike versus Sneak attack seemed a pretty major hit to combat as a stealth type. How much does the Ninja's ability to become invisible for a round as a swift action mitigate this?

Character creation:
Starting Level 1
1 Free masterwork weapon or armor
40 point buy

All WoTC books are allowed, but I'd rather stick to those I can access (either through the sources in my signature, or through Crystalkeep).

Any advice? It's late for me so I can't think of anything else to clarify with.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, in terms of sheer powergaming, Ninja is probably flat-out worse than a Rogue, and a weak class in general. They're better as NPCs since they can "nova" all their ki pool in a single encounter, but for any lengthy day, you likely won't be able to go invisible enough to make Sudden Strike on par with Sneak Attack.

Multiclassing with monk seems like a waste to me. Their AC bonuses just stack level-wise, and you would pretty much need to spend a feat to stack the levels for your ki pool.

I like Ninja/Swordsage combos a lot, and I've long since adapting Tome of Battle into my gaming books conisdered 1-2 levels in Swordsage a worthy dip for any roguish class at 9th and 10th HD. But that book's not on your list, so no more on that...

Have you considered Ninja/Druid hybrid? Druids have the nice wisdom synergy, get crud for armor anyway (so going unarmored isn't a huge deal), and while you probably wouldn't want too many levels deep into it, the wildshaping*, thousand faces, and such can really help you to be sneaky in whole new ways. Also, Spell Compendium (or Complete Adventurer, which has more powerful versions of the spells, but was "overidden" by SpC) has many low level druid spells of use. Camouflage for hide checks....some other one that adds to hide and move silently in a specified natural terrain type...Spells to gain one animal's senses (like say...blindsense/sight).

All I can say is, with 40 point buy, you can have really good stats, don't be afraid of doing a class or combo of classes with some MAD (multiple ability dependency).

*Or use the PH2 variant for shapeshifting at level 1 and no need for deep druid level dipping (the fact it costs a swift action, same as your ki pool, kinda blows, though). But I'm not sure if that variant really does squat to help you blend in or disguise yourself in any degree. I mean, it's just so handy to be the enemy commander's horse, or a bird flying overhead...

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

You've got a lot of stat points to work with here. I recommend getting as much out of them as possible.

I've recommended this build recently, but it's good for your situation. (Actually better, since you haven't said anything about being unarmed.)

Changeling Rogue 3/Swashbuckler X/Ninja X/Invisible Blade 5.
Str 10, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 14. (At first level.)
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (dagger), Far Shot to qualify for Invisible Blade; Daring Outlaw (Rogue and Swashbuckler stack for sneak attack dice).

You have Evasion, add your Int and Wis bonuses to your AC, plus a couple small bonuses. You add your Int bonus to damage with your dagger. All of your class levels give you either sneak attack or sudden strike and you feint as a free action in combat so almost all of your melee attacks qualify.

If you're going epic, take Martial Stalker so that your Ninja levels count as Fighter levels for the purposes of Weapon Specialization. Take Weapon Specialization, then Daring Warrior, so that your Swashbuckler levels count as Fighter levels, too.

 

[Theroc]

Well, in terms of sheer powergaming, Ninja is probably flat-out worse than a Rogue, and a weak class in general. They're better as NPCs since they can "nova" all their ki pool in a single encounter, but for any lengthy day, you likely won't be able to go invisible enough to make Sudden Strike on par with Sneak Attack.

Multiclassing with monk seems like a waste to me. Their AC bonuses just stack level-wise, and you would pretty much need to spend a feat to stack the levels for your ki pool.

I like Ninja/Swordsage combos a lot, and I've long since adapting Tome of Battle into my gaming books conisdered 1-2 levels in Swordsage a worthy dip for any roguish class at 9th and 10th HD. But that book's not on your list, so no more on that...

Have you considered Ninja/Druid hybrid? Druids have the nice wisdom synergy, get crud for armor anyway (so going unarmored isn't a huge deal), and while you probably wouldn't want too many levels deep into it, the wildshaping*, thousand faces, and such can really help you to be sneaky in whole new ways. Also, Spell Compendium (or Complete Adventurer, which has more powerful versions of the spells, but was "overidden" by SpC) has many low level druid spells of use. Camouflage for hide checks....some other one that adds to hide and move silently in a specified natural terrain type...Spells to gain one animal's senses (like say...blindsense/sight).

All I can say is, with 40 point buy, you can have really good stats, don't be afraid of doing a class or combo of classes with some MAD (multiple ability dependency).

*Or use the PH2 variant for shapeshifting at level 1 and no need for deep druid level dipping (the fact it costs a swift action, same as your ki pool, kinda blows, though). But I'm not sure if that variant really does squat to help you blend in or disguise yourself in any degree. I mean, it's just so handy to be the enemy commander's horse, or a bird flying overhead...

Mmm... I figured the ninja would be a bit weaker in that respect, but was wondering if there was anything the ninja could do that would make it worthwhile. The other reason I was considering Ninja/Monk was because that could make a rather nasty Sudden FoB while invisible at later levels.

As for Swordsage... I don't have access to the ToB... as much as I'd love to have it. I'd jump at a chance to play the class, but the only one I can access is the excerpt Wizards has up... which is some of the Iron Heart things, and Warblade... (and it doesn't fully explain the system, obviously, nor give any feat info)... so it's not really that usable for me.

To druid/ninja... might just be me, but that doesn't really seem to fit the assassin image as much. I see what you're saying, but the concept that comes to my mind with druid just clashes with the 'sneaky assassin' as far as the end goal.

 

[Theroc]

You've got a lot of stat points to work with here. I recommend getting as much out of them as possible.

I've recommended this build recently, but it's good for your situation. (Actually better, since you haven't said anything about being unarmed.)

Changeling Rogue 3/Swashbuckler X/Ninja X/Invisible Blade 5.
Str 10, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 14. (At first level.)
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (dagger), Far Shot to qualify for Invisible Blade; Daring Outlaw (Rogue and Swashbuckler stack for sneak attack dice).

You have Evasion, add your Int and Wis bonuses to your AC, plus a couple small bonuses. You add your Int bonus to damage with your dagger. All of your class levels give you either sneak attack or sudden strike and you feint as a free action in combat so almost all of your melee attacks qualify.

If you're going epic, take Martial Stalker so that your Ninja levels count as Fighter levels for the purposes of Weapon Specialization. Take Weapon Specialization, then Daring Warrior, so that your Swashbuckler levels count as Fighter levels, too.

Well, I can get level 1 and 2 of Invisible Blade from Crystalkeep. I can't really access the rest of Complete Warrior at the moment. (I can access the entire swashbuckler class on crystalkeep as well).

Aside from that, the build looks interesting.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

The invisible blade listing in C.Warrior is actually feeply flawed. It requires a bunch of ranged feats even though almost all of the class features only work for melee. The author I think even came out and said the original idea got mangled and posted a more sensible version of the prestige class online. Or maybe it wasn't the author, just a fan, whatever.

In any case, I played an invisible blade and found it to be a really, really weak class hardly worth taking (as written in C.Warrior). That character stopped progressing in IB at level 3 or so, and I had him move into another fighter/rogue PrC from that book, Master Thrower. Even though he was meant more for melee, I found MT to just be a much better/cooler class in general and the ability to be good from ranged (Trip Shot, OMG awesome) was a nice complement to melee even though it didn't add to it.

On Korimyr's build: I don't think Weapon Specialization is worth burning a feat on Martial Stalker. Maybe for the later level PH2 feats, but still, it's not like you actually have the bonus feats of a fighter to get all of these with. And between attacking flatfooted (and +2 for invisible) and your SS/SA and int-based precision damage, you don't really need feats for another +2. I'm also curious how you're taking two Fighter multiclass feats without being a Fighter, but maybe that's how those feats work and I just forgot.

Daring Outlaw is worthwhile, particularly if your DM is nice and lets it also add to your Sudden strike in some way. Then again, Korimyr has you filling up to level 20 with Swashbuckler. I'm not sure Swash is worth more than 3 levels even if you're gaining SA dice. You get better hp and BAB, but you lose out on skills and ki pool and other ninja (or rogue, if that's your thing) class features.

Other than those suggestions, it's a fine build.

Some other general points to add I just thought of:
If you do go Ninja, Sudden Strike may not have to be ranged, but since you get no benefit from flanking, for your own well being it's generally more effective to make a quasi-archer Ninja. You might want ot look towards feats to help you deliver ranged sneak attacks. Whether it's Telling Blow, to add SS/SA when you crit, or the PH2 feat the name of which I forget... It requires Precise Shot and basically lets you ready an action to shoot someone right after they're struck in melee. By using the readied action, the foe is left flatfooted to your attack. Your ki pool won't last all day, that feat would be a handy fall back.

The other major point is if you plan to fight in melee with regularity at all, Staggering Strike feat from C.Adv is a no-brainer. You NEED it. You WANT it. Anytime you deliver SA (or SS, you know) in melee, the foe must make a fort save vs. damage dealt or be staggered for 1 round. Rogue types don't get nearly as much overpowered splat stuff as the other classes, take advantage of what little there is!

 

[Theroc]

The invisible blade listing in C.Warrior is actually feeply flawed. It requires a bunch of ranged feats even though almost all of the class features only work for melee. The author I think even came out and said the original idea got mangled and posted a more sensible version of the prestige class online. Or maybe it wasn't the author, just a fan, whatever.

In any case, I played an invisible blade and found it to be a really, really weak class hardly worth taking (as written in C.Warrior). That character stopped progressing in IB at level 3 or so, and I had him move into another fighter/rogue PrC from that book, Master Thrower. Even though he was meant more for melee, I found MT to just be a much better/cooler class in general and the ability to be good from ranged (Trip Shot, OMG awesome) was a nice complement to melee even though it didn't add to it.

On Korimyr's build: I don't think Weapon Specialization is worth burning a feat on Martial Stalker. Maybe for the later level PH2 feats, but still, it's not like you actually have the bonus feats of a fighter to get all of these with. And between attacking flatfooted (and +2 for invisible) and your SS/SA and int-based precision damage, you don't really need feats for another +2. I'm also curious how you're taking two Fighter multiclass feats without being a Fighter, but maybe that's how those feats work and I just forgot.

Daring Outlaw is worthwhile, particularly if your DM is nice and lets it also add to your Sudden strike in some way. Then again, Korimyr has you filling up to level 20 with Swashbuckler. I'm not sure Swash is worth more than 3 levels even if you're gaining SA dice. You get better hp and BAB, but you lose out on skills and ki pool and other ninja (or rogue, if that's your thing) class features.

Other than those suggestions, it's a fine build.

Some other general points to add I just thought of:
If you do go Ninja, Sudden Strike may not have to be ranged, but since you get no benefit from flanking, for your own well being it's generally more effective to make a quasi-archer Ninja. You might want ot look towards feats to help you deliver ranged sneak attacks. Whether it's Telling Blow, to add SS/SA when you crit, or the PH2 feat the name of which I forget... It requires Precise Shot and basically lets you ready an action to shoot someone right after they're struck in melee. By using the readied action, the foe is left flatfooted to your attack. Your ki pool won't last all day, that feat would be a handy fall back.

The other major point is if you plan to fight in melee with regularity at all, Staggering Strike feat from C.Adv is a no-brainer. You NEED it. You WANT it. Anytime you deliver SA (or SS, you know) in melee, the foe must make a fort save vs. damage dealt or be staggered for 1 round. Rogue types don't get nearly as much overpowered splat stuff as the other classes, take advantage of what little there is!

Hm... yeah. There's a surprising dearth of meshing sneaky classes. Rogue/Ninja is mildly redundant due to trapfinding... and if IB is no good(I was leaning more towards a kama or 'ninja-like' weapon more than a standard dagger (though I'm sure a ninja would use those should it be most effective). From the two levels I saw, if would be good if it didn't require so many ranged feats (though I could always throw shuriken). As for Staggering Strike... does that deny dex to AC or something? Or is it just useful for throwing the opponent off for a round?

The general idea I'd had initially was a kama in one hand, hand crossbow in the other, using FoB with unarmed and/or kama in melee, shooting the hand crossbow at range. (Obviously this was with my monk concept.)

How good is the persistant attacker feat? It greatly reduces your initial SA(-4d6 SA) to let your next attack be a sneak attack regardless of changing conditions(i.e. sneak attack even if not flanking or denying your adversary dex to AC). Couldn't that be used to keep SA's going all fight long? Weaker ones, for sure, but throughout the whole battle?

 

[Rhun]

I agree with the Rogue/Swordsage suggestion, though I realize you dont have ToB:Bo9S. I'm currently playing a Rogue/Swordsage who is sort of a reformed assassin, and he is a pretty sweet character.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

The invisible blade listing in C.Warrior is actually feeply flawed. It requires a bunch of ranged feats even though almost all of the class features only work for melee.

Yeah, I certainly agree. I substitute Combat Expertise and Improved Feint (even though Improved Feint duplicates a class feature) in my own games. But I wanted to stick with RAW for a build that's already a little questionable.

In any case, I played an invisible blade and found it to be a really, really weak class hardly worth taking (as written in C.Warrior).

It's the ability to feint as a free action at 5th that makes the class worth it. Before that, it's just a couple of points of AC and a sneak attack limited to a single weapon.

On Korimyr's build: I don't think Weapon Specialization is worth burning a feat on Martial Stalker. Maybe for the later level PH2 feats, but still, it's not like you actually have the bonus feats of a fighter to get all of these with.

Definitely not. That's setup for picking the PHB2 feats in Epic, when you do get the bonus feats to pick them up.

Better off with the TWF feats, to get more of those free feint Sudden Sneak Strike Attacks.

I'm also curious how you're taking two Fighter multiclass feats without being a Fighter, but maybe that's how those feats work and I just forgot.

Martial Stalker might be a Fighter multiclass feat, but it doesn't actually require any Fighter levels-- just proficiency in all martial weapons. Since your Ninja levels stack with Fighter levels for weapon feats, at Ninja 4 you can take Weapon Specialization, which qualifies you for Daring Warrior.

It's like Ascetic Magic. It doesn't require any levels of Monk, just Improved Unarmed Strike. Ninja 3/Sorcerer 4 qualifies for Ascetic Mage and allows you to add your Charisma to AC. Human with Able Learner Ninja 1/Sorcerer 1/Human Paragon 3/Unseen Seer 4/Arcane Trickster 10 is a viable build. The only shortcoming is the lack of Evasion, which can be offset with a magic ring.

Daring Outlaw is worthwhile, particularly if your DM is nice and lets it also add to your Sudden strike in some way.

Allow you to increase both Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike with Swashbuckler levels? That seems like it's a little over-the-top, especially since you're still getting Sudden Strike from your Ninja levels. What I'm saying is to keep your Swashbuckler and Ninja levels even to 20. Your ki pool is a little slow, but the extra HP and BAB are worth it, especially since the Swashbuckler still has 4 skill points and Bluff.

If you do go Ninja, Sudden Strike may not have to be ranged, but since you get no benefit from flanking, for your own well being it's generally more effective to make a quasi-archer Ninja.

Human Ninja 3/Soulknife 2/Soulbow 1. Keep a real weapon in your main hand, and whenever you need to shoot someone, tag them with mind arrows. Won't cost you actions like switching to another ranged weapon, you have unlimited ammunition, and you get to take advantage of your high Wisdom again. You could also consider psionic feats to boost your mobility or your archery.

After that, your advice is spot on.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I don't know what level your PC is supposed to be, so I won't post any extrapolated builds, just suggestions. In addition, I'm utterly unconcerned about optimization, and all about PC development, so take my suggestions as you will.

1) I love Soulknives as assassins. They get d10 HD, can wear some armor, and cannot be disarmed. PsyWars get my 2nd place vote on this, followed by Rogues and Battle Sorcerers. Druids, to me, rarely have the ethical makeup to be assassins except in the case of particular, nature-oriented causes.

That immunity to being disarmed in the Soulknife class can be found in the Kineticist PrCl and the Warlock base class, as can be a Sorcerer or Wizard with the right Heritage or Reserve feats.

If you do go with any Soulknife build, try to use the Shape Mindblade Feats found in Dragon #341- they're designed similarly to but better drafted and broader- esp. from the PC design flexibility standpoint- than the ones in CompPsi. They are not more powerful, so I don't think there is any balance issue.

2) Consider the Shou Disciple PrCl from OA. Its a 5 level monk PrCl that doesn't require any monk levels, just meeting its BAB and Feat prereqs. Its claim to fame is that you get to use FoB with any weapon while wearing armor.

Another PrCl from the same book is the Shiba Protector, which adds your PC's Wis bonus to Att & damage rolls. If you're playing any kind of monk build, that means his Wis is doing multiple duty.

Again, if you use anything from OA, it may be worth your while to check out Dragon #317, which contains the 3.5 update.

3) Take Spellfire.