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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 6675633" data-attributes="member: 5834">I much prefer how 3E handled surprise. 5E surprise makes little sense. I really hope Pathfinder puts out a new streamlined edition of their game at some point. Some of things in 5E are annoying such as their version of surprise not really being surprise unless you win initiative even though they don't know you're there...except somehow they do know you're there before you attack because they won initiative. Yet you get advantage for using stealth because Unseen Attacker, but not in the surprise round because they know you're there and shouldn't give you advantage. And the ridiculousness of this ruling and how it interacts with Stealth just continues on. This is definitely one of those things Mearls and company did not imagine very well and it disrupts a key class ability that is hard to use in a party environment to begin with.The fiction this ruling encourages just makes my head hurt.1. Roll Stealth. 2. Target fails to beat your stealth. He does not know you're there.3. You attack. Surprise occurs.4. You and target roll initiative. Target beats on you initiative.5. Target takes his turn doing nothing but talking about the unseen person that surprised him that he still can't see, but he got to take a turn because that is what the RAW says.6. Assassin shoots with advantage because Unseen Attacker from using Stealth. Or does he get this? I don't know. The target won initiative, so he must know you're there. But the RAW says unseen attacker from Stealthing. But he won initiative.7. Target uses reaction to cast a spell if he's a caster, but do nothing if he isn't. Gets hit with advantage for sneak attack damage, but not crit. Sneak attack because rogue gained advantage because target was unaware of his location, but somehow avoided Assassinate because he already acted allowing him to avoid the worst of the blow, even though he didn't know he was there.It's just ridiculous. It's like having your cake and eating it too. You get to know the Assassin was there if you win initiative, but the Assassin still gets advantage form you not knowing he is there, but you still get to act after your turn as though you know he is there. It's making my head hurt.</blockquote>

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