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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DEFCON 1" data-source="post: 6676230" data-attributes="member: 7006">It makes written sense if you parse the language a certain way, I don't disagree. But... I also accept that NONE of the books have been written to have water-tight rules verbiage and instead are meant to be taken with a bout of DM common sense.  And as far as *I'm* concerned... having a Surprised enemy become unsurprised *prior* to the surprise attack actually happening against him (just because they rolled a higher Initiative for a combat that hasn't actually started yet) to me makes absolutely no common sense.  Can someone parse the language in the rules so it makes written sense?  Sure.  But should they?  Eh... not so sure.  That possible ignoring of common sense-- that combat starts just because the rogue is *thinking* about attacking and thus the DM is having everyone roll initiative (and possibly eliminating the rogue's chance to assassinate the target)-- nerfs the Assassin's ability unnecessarily in my opinion.  An ability that at least as far as I'm concerned... is not so powerful that we need to curb the number of times a rogue can use it.Now if the combination of generalized and non-watertight written rules information for initiative, surprise, and the Assassinate ability, plus your own personal DM's common sense tells you the Rogue Assassin should only get to use Assassinate when they roll higher on initiative than their Surprised target... then more power to you.  I won't argue on that.  Your common sense says that's fine, then I got no beef.  Best of luck to you!But if you read this entire situation and have that niggling feeling that "you know, does it really make sense that someone who doesn't know an attack is coming suddenly DOES know an attack is coming just because a rules mechanic says initiative for combat can be rolled prior to the combat actually STARTING with that surprise attack..." then the DM should take the opportunity to dig in to the 5E mantra of "Rulings, not rules" and say screw it-- the rogue can use Assassinate whenever they have Surprise on their target because that's just logical.  Combat doesn't start until the first attacker makes the initial combat's attack (which in this case is the Rogue Assassin). Regardless of what people's initiatives are.</blockquote>

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