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Message: <blockquote data-quote="redrick" data-source="post: 6676539" data-attributes="member: 6777696">Actually curious, as I don't have my PHB with me. Is the Disadvantage on the save for Hold Person something particular to the Arcane Trickster? As I understand the rules, a situation that would yield Advantage on an attack roll does not necessarily yield Disadvantage on a saving throw. From my understanding, there's no benefit to casting a Save spell from hiding other than, as long as you stay hidden, enemies will have a harder time attacking you.If the target isn't saving at Disadvantage, chances of success on that Hold Person are not quite as good as your attack with Advantage. (Especially if your Assassin is dual wielding thrown weapons or melee weapons, giving two chances at a hit, both with Advantage, one of which could yield full critical sneak attack.) Also remember that your target gets two chances to save before the Trickster's next turn. One when the spell is cast, and another at the end of its turn. Still a useful opening move! Even taking one turn away from an opponent is a useful thing in a 3-round combat, and anybody who attacks said target before its turn will get Advantage.On the other hand, casting Hold Person against a target that is already surprised might be a bit of a waste. The target wasn't going to act that round anyway, and if it saves at the end of its turn, you've got nothing to show for your spell slot. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.On a side tangent, with the Assassinate feature and a dual wielding rogue, you would get automatic criticals both attacks if successful, correct? Not that the critical on the non-sneak-attack is worth much compared to the 6d6 or more from the first attack, so probably better off using that bonus action to do something Cunning.--EDITED TO ADD--Obviously, if you're liking the Arcane Trickster, it's a great subclass, and opens up all sorts of creative options. We have an Arcane Trickster in our group now and he's having a great time. Just not sure that the Assassin is as useless as you're making it out to be. Assassinate comes up a lot, and when it does, it's always useful.It seems all about what you like to do. If your thing is about sneaking around and getting the drop on people, Assassinate is great. And the Advantage from acting first in combat will often come up even when you're not surprising your enemies. That's a good chance at a free sneak attack just for having a high initiative bonus. (There's usually somebody who rolls lower initiative than the guy with +4 or +5 dex. Even if you don't pick up the Alert feat.) Not to mention that, as an Assassin, you don't have to worry about your Intelligence so much, so you can focus on stats like Wisdom and Strength, which make you better at getting climbing into useful places or spotting your enemies before they spot you. Not every Rogue wants to focus resources on Intelligence in order to have a high save DC.</blockquote>

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