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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Arial Black" data-source="post: 6678670" data-attributes="member: 6799649">It's fruitless to complain about the lack of DM-independent rules to determine when surprise ends when the rules for when surprise begins is equally dependent on the DM.RAW, the DM determines whether anyone in the combat is surprised (PHB p189). This is the entire extent of the RAW on when surprise begins, so it can't come as a *ahem* surprise that the determination of when surprise ends is equally DM dependent.How is the DM supposed to determine surprise, according to RAW? Although there is an example using Stealth/Perception, the actual rule is, 'Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter'.It shouldn't take a genius to figure out that a character or creature is no longer surprised as soon as they do 'notice a threat'!Initiative determines how fast you can react to things that you perceive (because you cannot react to things you haven't perceived), but it doesn't determine what you actually perceive; for that, you need your senses. In game terms, Perception or Insight might be appropriate depending on circumstances, but if the outcome is not uncertain then DM fiat is fine.It's hard to argue that a creature taking an arrow to the chest is uncertain if he's in danger or not!</blockquote>